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Don't Buy the Snake Oil of Beamr Video

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Re: Don't Buy the Snake Oil of Beamr Video

#71
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>JPEGmini adaptively encodes each JPEG file to the minimum file size possible without affecting its original quality That is indeed what the FAQ says, but that being the case, the tool does not actually work very well, and the presentation is incredibly dishonest. The fact is that the JPEGmini versions of these images do lose noticeable quality, but Beamr is hiding this by giving a demo where the images are shown at…

I hope you're aware imgur compresses images that you upload to it regardless of whether they were already compressed.

Maybe they do that for lossy images, but I just compared what's on imgur to the original on my computer, and it is pixel-for-pixel identical. They did shave about 7KB off of it though, so maybe they push PNGs through pngout or similar.

I mean, as far as I know, there aren't even any practically useful algorithms out there for doing lossy compression on PNGs (although there should be).

Re: Don't Buy the Snake Oil of Beamr Video

#72
TL;D(id)R version:

Beamr isn't claiming a superior encoder. They're claiming to provide a service for video compression that is similar to what the tools like optipng and jpegoptim do for images: recompression without (noticeable) loss.

Their big claim to fame, however, is that they determine the "minimum" bitrate for your video to still look good.

So, in theory, if I feed back in the compressed video they give me - Beamr should refuse to optimize it further because it should be as perfectly compressed as possible.

Someone please do this test.

Then, more importantly, redo the test but modify those option strings embedded in the video (as mentioned in OP) so that it can't cheat and detect a "perfect" video by noticing its own proprietary app name or a previously seen checksum of the file.

I'd love to see the results.

If it can't detect perfection, letting the user recompress video over and over again until it slides into digital blocks of moving mush, then there really is no difference between this service and using a CRF of 18.5 as mentioned elsewhere in this thread.

Re: Don't Buy the Snake Oil of Beamr Video

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, but what Daiz proves in the OP is that he personally can do a better job than this so-called "algorithm". I hear his next project will be proving the worthlessness of spell checkers by simply beating them, at spelling. That paper clip thing in Word is such Snake Oil! ;) For the record I have nothing to do with this Beamr, but I do feel sorry for the those guys. The marketing speak on their website may be a littl…

Actually, no. What Diaz showed is that Beamr is offering nothing that actually improves either visual quality or bitrate; every setting that their method uses actually reduces quality compared to default x264 settings.

> What Diaz showed is that Beamr is offering nothing that actually improves either visual quality or bitrate

Well too bad Beamr never made that claim (AFAIK). What Beamr does claim is that their software can automatically find settings (per frame) that will compress a certain video file to it's smallest size without affecting quality (too much - in some subjective measure).

I'm not saying that Beamr is great. I have no idea, I've never used it. But what I can say for sure is that Daiz has not made a fair evaluation of the technology in the OP.

Re: Don't Buy the Snake Oil of Beamr Video

#75

TL;D(id)R version: Beamr isn't claiming a superior encoder. They're claiming to provide a service for video compression that is similar to what the tools like optipng and jpegoptim do for images: recompression without (noticeable) loss. Their big claim to fame, however, is that they determine the "minimum" bitrate for your video to still look good. So, in theory, if I feed back in the compressed video they give me -…

In this post: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5290308 he seems to claim both that beamr it can compress any file and that it is a downfall of x264 that it would continue to compress a file when reapplied.

Weird.

Re: Don't Buy the Snake Oil of Beamr Video

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Downloading the ros-k sample and playing with it in GIMP, it looks like exactly the same kind of chicanery using a few simple steps: 1. The "original" image is saved at a very high JPEG quality setting, somewhere around 99% by GIMP's figuring 2. The "JPEGmini" version is saved with a slightly lower, but still high quality setting of about 85%. 3. The "comparison" on the website shows the images scaled down to 25% of…

Well, yes. But I think the whole point of this technology is that you don't have to come up with the 85% number. It can be a lot of work to find the lowest quality setting that will be perceived as (near) lossless. Think millions of files.

That's actually a very good analogy to why Beamr's "minimal bitrate for no quality loss" isn't groundbreaking at all, especially since there is necessarily quality loss in lossy H264 -> H264 encoding.

85% is already a quality number, saying relatively how much quality you are willing to give up for kilobytes in your output JPEG. Similarly, x264's CRF option is a quality number, saying how much quality you are willing to give up for bitrate.

Inevitably Beamr will produce some files that are inefficient, as well as some files that have noticeable banding and banding. The difference is CRF allows adjustments.

Re: Don't Buy the Snake Oil of Beamr Video

#77
post #68
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We reduce each JPEG file to the minimum file size possible without affecting its original quality. This is blatantly incorrect. In files encoded with JPEG mini, there is visible banding. They are smaller, yes, but there is certainly a perceptual difference in image quality. I tried it myself.

Can you give examples? I've compressed thousands of files with JPEGmini and never found any banding or other loss of quality.

I'll leave it up to you to determine which is which. The results are undeniably atrocious.

http://i.imgur.com/kadvgkyh.png

http://i.imgur.com/OGvb2vM.png

(Yes, the file name is the same in both because I imported the two and switched the layers on and off.)

Re: Don't Buy the Snake Oil of Beamr Video

#78
post #75

TL;D(id)R version: Beamr isn't claiming a superior encoder. They're claiming to provide a service for video compression that is similar to what the tools like optipng and jpegoptim do for images: recompression without (noticeable) loss. Their big claim to fame, however, is that they determine the "minimum" bitrate for your video to still look good. So, in theory, if I feed back in the compressed video they give me -…

In this post: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5290308 he seems to claim both that beamr it can compress any file and that it is a downfall of x264 that it would continue to compress a file when reapplied. Weird.

Yeah, this response is partly why I suggested that testing protocol.

Re: Don't Buy the Snake Oil of Beamr Video

#79
It's good to see a response from Beamr staff. Perhaps rhetorical but....

How do you feel licensing an amazing open source tool, adding a few patches you feel needed for perceptual quality in crf encodes, and then calling it your own product? Even a "patent pending" product?

You've done one small bit of coding, building upon the _years_ of work that open source devs have done.

You present this minorly tweaked x264 as a revolution in online video and allude that it's all your work. No reference to x264 at all on your site, which I guess is your right having paid the license fee. Still not impressive for anyone looking at your product, how it works, or wondering about the toolchain involved.

How about submitting some patches and pull requests to the tool that makes your product possible? Oh wait, that's right, you'll take that product that's 99% not your work and make as much money as you can.

Are you gonna approach all the big sites using x264 and try to convince them to change to beamr? No, I didn't think so. Snake Oil semantics for the uninformed.

As a wonderful T-Shirt I saw once states " My free software runs your company ".

UPDATE

Actually I've thought long and hard about this. They might not be so blameworthy or snake oily, they might just be using FAR too broad of explanations for what they've done. We've all jumped on them because it was almost like they've said they created a new encoder.

The possibility I didn't really think of is that they have coded their own proprietary solution that, as the media put it loosely in the original piece posted here : "According to the company, the compression method mimics the human eye and removes elements that would not have been processed by the human eye in the first place." [1]

Now I don't know if their solution; #1 Directly changes/effects the x264 source code, or #2 is something that runs before encoding and simply determines x264 settings to be used. Or even a mixture of both.

#1 If the changes are to x264 itself, I shake my head and my fist at them and again point to the years of open free development done in x264. (Most notable in this case it's amazing psy optimizations which do exactly what this company is claiming to have advanced ... it adjusts quality internally for the human eyes perception instead of metrics like PSNR and SSIM.) Submit a patch!

#2 If their software is completely separate and determines x264 settings via their proprietary methods, then what they've done is not so ridiculous.

They've done a confusing job explaining things, but I can imagine at least one scenario:

----- A user uploads a home video to their servers.

Their software scans it and takes careful note of scenes with high levels of movement, scenes with human shapes moving, scenes with human faces, scene's that match algorithms for water, grass, natural environs etc etc

They then parse those notes and either set x264's many advanced settings globally, or perhaps even change each scene's x264 settings accordingly. ---

Who knows.... It's been interesting following this nonetheless,

[1] http://nocamels.com/2013/02/beamr-can-cut-video-file-size-by...

Re: Don't Buy the Snake Oil of Beamr Video

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, yes. But I think the whole point of this technology is that you don't have to come up with the 85% number. It can be a lot of work to find the lowest quality setting that will be perceived as (near) lossless. Think millions of files.

I see now that this is what they purport to do. However I still maintain that the presentation is dishonest. Showing a comparison at 25% scale gives the impression that the tool is better at choosing "nearly lossless" setting than it really is. Look at the dog image, which on their demo appears to be identical to the original. Now look at it at 100% scale: http://imgur.com/z12mHnd . Block artifacts galore. Now sure,…

I agree 100% on the proposed comparison. In fact I proposed the same for a fair evaluation of Beamr video above. :)

For the rest, I have no idea. I've never used anything Beamr.

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