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Don't Buy the Snake Oil of Beamr Video

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Re: Don't Buy the Snake Oil of Beamr Video

#31

Daiz hello, this is Dror from Beamr. The technologies we have developed, JPEGmini and Beamr Video, are definitely not "Snake Oil", and I don't think it would be good practice to make such claims regarding any company's technology without checking the facts first and asking for the company's response before posting. Our technologies for image and video compression have received excellent reviews in the media, and have…

But what does that concretely mean, "lowest bitrate or file size possible"? What do you mean by "possible"?

You almost certainly mean choosing a lower bitrate whose numerical perceptual quality is similar to the video encoded at a higher bitrate. Of course, x264 can do that—that's what the CRF value is. It already has technology to choose the best bitrate per GOP given its perceptual model.

Even if I take everything you say at face value, your semantics, at minimum, are the snake oil. You make it sound like this perceptual compression technology doesn't exist, when it actually ships on by default in Handbrake.

I think what Daiz is talking about is snake oil of the technology, not semantic, variety.

So let's talk technology snake oil. Your special perceptual model might find situations where it could reduce the bitrate in a way that x264's model would disagree. But what about situations where x264's model is better? The end-user never gets to see where x264 makes a subjectively better image than your system does at a lower bitrate.

In other words, quality arbitrage: you can always claim to reduce bitrate by adjusting your model to be a bit more permissive than the competition. Knowing there is no rigorous numerical way to compare two perception-optimizing compressors, you can get away with "arbitrage" bitrate reductions.

Put another way, a lot of people are going to demand the wrong tests, because they don't understand the inherent contradiction of comparing two perception-optimizing compressors (like allegedly Beamr and x264's CRF model).

The way I'd know if your perceptual model were in fact better is if you could show me situations where it is wrong. In other words, convert your "lowest... possible" Beamr Perceptual Model parameter to a CRF parameter. You could do it subjectively. Find me situations where x264 chooses a lower bitrate than your model. At least if your model is falsifiable, it isn't snake oil.

Incidentally, Diaz did exactly this test. And your model calculate a worse bitrate than an equivalently-chosen CRF in all cases.

So your model isn't snake oil—it's just bad. Perhaps we would randomize the subjective differences, but my suspicion is the default Handbrake CRF (20.0) will work better more than 50% of the time for randomized videos against a randomized audience.

Re: Don't Buy the Snake Oil of Beamr Video

#32

Daiz hello, this is Dror from Beamr. The technologies we have developed, JPEGmini and Beamr Video, are definitely not "Snake Oil", and I don't think it would be good practice to make such claims regarding any company's technology without checking the facts first and asking for the company's response before posting. Our technologies for image and video compression have received excellent reviews in the media, and have…

What you've described sounds a lot like x264's --crf option, which adaptively chooses a bitrate based on the input. How is Beamr different?

Being generous - It sounds like beamr has a tool that can choose, for a given input video, which minimum crf option will provide a 'transparent' transcode.

Re: Don't Buy the Snake Oil of Beamr Video

#33
post #4

The folks behind Beamr H.264 also have a 'patent pending', proprietary JPEG image "recompression technology": http://www.jpegmini.com/ I'm curious what an analysis of one of their JPEG's would show?

The files in the before/after preview slider are exactly the same file size when they're supposed to be showing how their compressed image looks as good as the original. They're also not the same files you get when you click the download button.

Those are just preview files used for fast page load, but they are based on resized versions of the original and the JPEGmini version. You are welcome to download the original and JPEGmini full resolution files, and compare them at "Actual Size" (100% zoom).

Re: Don't Buy the Snake Oil of Beamr Video

#34
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So post 1) a high quality original video (30-40 Mbit). 2) a 2-Mbit video compressed with your algorithm. 3) a 2-Mbit video compressed with x264 with reasonable settings. Until you present evidence, that article has very valid criticisms, which you have not addressed. Instead you went full PR astroturfing telling how great your tech is. PROVE YOUR CLAIMS.

Beamr Video is not a bitrate-driven encoder - you cannot specify the bitrate of the output clip, so we cannot provide 2). We can only provide an output clip with the same quality as the input and lower bitrate, but we can't guarantee in advance what that bitrate would be. That is the basic difference between Beamr Video which is a quality-driven video optimization technology, and a regular video encoder that is typic…

You could compress something with Beamr first, see what bitrate it spit out, then compress with standard encoder at the same bitrate. This isn't perfect since it's clearly favoring Beamr, but it would be somewhat useful.

Re: Don't Buy the Snake Oil of Beamr Video

#35
post #4

The folks behind Beamr H.264 also have a 'patent pending', proprietary JPEG image "recompression technology": http://www.jpegmini.com/ I'm curious what an analysis of one of their JPEG's would show?

Downloading the ros-k sample and playing with it in GIMP, it looks like exactly the same kind of chicanery using a few simple steps:

1. The "original" image is saved at a very high JPEG quality setting, somewhere around 99% by GIMP's figuring

2. The "JPEGmini" version is saved with a slightly lower, but still high quality setting of about 85%.

3. The "comparison" on the website shows the images scaled down to 25% of their encoded resolution.

In other words, the JPEGmini version is nothing special. If you save a JPEG at 85% quality and look at 1/4 scale, it will look exactly the same as a JPEG saved at 99% quality at 1/4 scale. And it will look just as good as if you pass it through Beamr's software.

Re: Don't Buy the Snake Oil of Beamr Video

#36

Daiz hello, this is Dror from Beamr. The technologies we have developed, JPEGmini and Beamr Video, are definitely not "Snake Oil", and I don't think it would be good practice to make such claims regarding any company's technology without checking the facts first and asking for the company's response before posting. Our technologies for image and video compression have received excellent reviews in the media, and have…

> We reduce each JPEG file to the minimum file size possible without affecting its original quality.

This is blatantly incorrect. In files encoded with JPEG mini, there is visible banding. They are smaller, yes, but there is certainly a perceptual difference in image quality. I tried it myself.

Re: Don't Buy the Snake Oil of Beamr Video

#37
post #22

Daiz hello, this is Dror from Beamr. The technologies we have developed, JPEGmini and Beamr Video, are definitely not "Snake Oil", and I don't think it would be good practice to make such claims regarding any company's technology without checking the facts first and asking for the company's response before posting. Our technologies for image and video compression have received excellent reviews in the media, and have…

So post 1) a high quality original video (30-40 Mbit). 2) a 2-Mbit video compressed with your algorithm. 3) a 2-Mbit video compressed with x264 with reasonable settings. Until you present evidence, that article has very valid criticisms, which you have not addressed. Instead you went full PR astroturfing telling how great your tech is. PROVE YOUR CLAIMS.

I think what Dror is saying that if you take #3 and run it through their tool you'll get a smaller size with the same quality. So it's some sort of h.264 post-processor... I agree evidence would be nice.

Re: Don't Buy the Snake Oil of Beamr Video

#38
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So post 1) a high quality original video (30-40 Mbit). 2) a 2-Mbit video compressed with your algorithm. 3) a 2-Mbit video compressed with x264 with reasonable settings. Until you present evidence, that article has very valid criticisms, which you have not addressed. Instead you went full PR astroturfing telling how great your tech is. PROVE YOUR CLAIMS.

Beamr Video is not a bitrate-driven encoder - you cannot specify the bitrate of the output clip, so we cannot provide 2). We can only provide an output clip with the same quality as the input and lower bitrate, but we can't guarantee in advance what that bitrate would be. That is the basic difference between Beamr Video which is a quality-driven video optimization technology, and a regular video encoder that is typic…

Ok,

1) Compress the original with x264, target around 2mbit

2) Compress the result of #1 with your algorithm.

3) Compress the original with x264, target the bitrate of the result of #2

Compare #2 and #3

Re: Don't Buy the Snake Oil of Beamr Video

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The files in the before/after preview slider are exactly the same file size when they're supposed to be showing how their compressed image looks as good as the original. They're also not the same files you get when you click the download button.

Those are just preview files used for fast page load, but they are based on resized versions of the original and the JPEGmini version. You are welcome to download the original and JPEGmini full resolution files, and compare them at "Actual Size" (100% zoom).

If you get two large images and resize them down to a small preview, they'll look the same. It's really complete bullshit showing those as "examples".

Re: Don't Buy the Snake Oil of Beamr Video

#40

Daiz hello, this is Dror from Beamr. The technologies we have developed, JPEGmini and Beamr Video, are definitely not "Snake Oil", and I don't think it would be good practice to make such claims regarding any company's technology without checking the facts first and asking for the company's response before posting. Our technologies for image and video compression have received excellent reviews in the media, and have…

I'm going to answer you in detail, but it's going to take a while since I'm going to do some additional test encodes for it.

Also, you should note that I am only talking about your Beamr Video product in my post - I haven't used or tested your JPEG tools, so bringing them up here is largely irrelevant. Also, even if you have developed something effective for JPEG, does not mean you could develop something equally effective for a much more complex format like H.264.

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