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How to Break Out of the 'Female Entrepreneur' Trap

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Re: How to Break Out of the 'Female Entrepreneur' Trap

#61

Post by tptacek »

ahoyhere wrote: post #60
tptacek wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the angry blog posts help. I think most of HN is not aware of how pervasive sexism and gender privilege assumptions are in Startuplandia. We're commenting on Hacker News, a site run by someone who's most famous essay says outright that he wouldn't want to work at an early-stage startup with a woman with small children. In other words, I think even the people pushing gender privilege aren't fully aware that th…

What we think and what there's evidence for are diff things. Obviously everybody's entitled to their opinions. There is research that suggests, however… * priming people to remind them that they belong to a stereotyped group actually causes people to perform worse (stereotypically) -- this is called stereotype threat, lots available if you googles * guilting people about their culture's bad behavior / their personal…

The people who consciously choose to believe that women are inferior to men in software development, either due to misguided beliefs about genetics or intractable upbringing issues, aren't going to be persuaded by angry blog posts or anything else. They're already dug in to their positions.

The people who benefit from alertness to privilege, culture, and bias issues are the ones running or helping influence the operation of development shop who don't understand the problem. They're the ones who think "avoid hiring women with small children in early startups" is an innocent enough statement --- after all, they won't have enough time to put in. They're the ones who ask women at interviews how they're going to handle picking up their children after school. They're the ones who think if you spend 8-10 of your 14-16 working hours a day at work, it's only natural that you'd try to find dating partners at work.

I believe you when you say that stereotype threat is a real problem with "angry blog posts". Personally, I think the overt bias problem is so bad right now that we can probably set stereotype threat aside until we cut back the active prejudice a bit. But it's also worth pointing out that the mitigation strategies for stereotype threat aren't "pretend the stereotype isn't a problem".

Re: How to Break Out of the 'Female Entrepreneur' Trap

#62

Post by AlexandrB »

omonra wrote: post #58
AlexandrB wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Here is Former Labor Secretary Robert Reich, explaining that the portion of the gender wage gap due to bias and prejudice is about 25% of the total gap. That is 75% of the gap is due to various career choices and career preferences that differ between men and women, and the remaining 25% is due to bias and prejudice. So if the wage gap is 24 cents on the dollar, the wage gap due to bias and prejudice is 6 cents. St…

You realize that to claim a gender gap, you have to compare apples to apples - same job, education level, hours worked between genders? And when all of this is tabulated, there is no gender gap. http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505125_162-28246928/the-gender-p... "Why the Gender Pay Gap is a Complete Myth Men are far more likely to choose careers that are more dangerous, so they naturally pay more. Top 10 most dangerous j…

I'm afraid none of this addresses my point and the question I implicitly raise - namely why do women choose the work they do?

I'm not saying that biology is not a factor - physically demanding jobs may always be the domain of men - but there's little apparent reason for so few women choosing computer and engineering fields besides socialization.

As for the business owner angle, I think another poster here had it right, women tend to be bad at negotiating but even that has confounding factors, e.g.: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07...

"Both men and women were more likely to subtly penalize women who asked for more -- the perception was that women who asked for more were "less nice".

"What we found across all the studies is men were always less willing to work with a woman who had attempted to negotiate than with a woman who did not," Bowles said. "They always preferred to work with a woman who stayed mum. But it made no difference to the men whether a guy had chosen to negotiate or not.""

Re: How to Break Out of the 'Female Entrepreneur' Trap

#63

Post by elptacek »

tptacek wrote: post #35
ahoyhere wrote: post #24

I very much agree with the premise but she's not a very clear writer. I think she assumes the reader already knows what the problem is. My take is that the more people focus on identity ("female" "founder" "hacker" "HNer" whatever), the less they focus on results. Everything that happens in their lives gets viewed through this lens of identity. Unfortunately, that colors things in an unrealistic way: "This guy trolle…

I think the angry blog posts help. I think most of HN is not aware of how pervasive sexism and gender privilege assumptions are in Startuplandia. We're commenting on Hacker News, a site run by someone who's most famous essay says outright that he wouldn't want to work at an early-stage startup with a woman with small children. In other words, I think even the people pushing gender privilege aren't fully aware that th…

Angry blog posts keep the conversation alive to a degree. Then they troll, polarize and reinforce stereotypes. Sadly, thoughtful blog posts don't get nearly as much attention. That is the distinction I'd like to make: creating a hostile political environment only fuels more hostility.

The only women's conference I've ever wanted to go to is RollerCon, anyway.

Re: How to Break Out of the 'Female Entrepreneur' Trap

#64

Post by startuup »

itsybitsycoder wrote: post #56
startuup wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This happens because women are raised to be terrible negotiators. http://books.google.com/books?id=k6vd7PJUFmYC&printsec=f... Its the way we (women) are brought up in the western world. Girls are pushed to be consensus driven from a young age; whereas, boys are encouraged to participate in conflicts. Its playing house vs. playing war analogy. This translates into women avoiding and being uncomfortable in conflict sit…

Unfortunately it's not just that simple. Women are also societally expected to be less aggressive and not haggle, and are often punished for breaking this expectation in a way that men aren't. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07...

I agree that its not that simple and the 'society' needs to get more comfortable with assertive women. But, having a women specific organization does not answer that challenge. If anything, it creates a further divide by driving the society away... the best way to change this vicious cycle is to assimilate into the society and changing it from within.

Re: How to Break Out of the 'Female Entrepreneur' Trap

#65

Post by joshguthrie »

ahoyhere wrote: post #60
tptacek wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the angry blog posts help. I think most of HN is not aware of how pervasive sexism and gender privilege assumptions are in Startuplandia. We're commenting on Hacker News, a site run by someone who's most famous essay says outright that he wouldn't want to work at an early-stage startup with a woman with small children. In other words, I think even the people pushing gender privilege aren't fully aware that th…

What we think and what there's evidence for are diff things. Obviously everybody's entitled to their opinions. There is research that suggests, however… * priming people to remind them that they belong to a stereotyped group actually causes people to perform worse (stereotypically) -- this is called stereotype threat, lots available if you googles * guilting people about their culture's bad behavior / their personal…

And here I was, thinking my girlfriend was the "odd one" just because she was (genuinely) laughing when a male coworker made a sexy(ist?) joke at her expense just ten minutes ago and never felt threatened of her own worth as a person in our male-dominated school (maybe 50 girls for about 5000 students).

Though I do resent you a bit now, I was really thinking I had found "the one" but you've taken a part of what made her unique and made it appear mundane :(

Re: How to Break Out of the 'Female Entrepreneur' Trap

#66

Post by ahoyhere »

tptacek wrote: post #61
ahoyhere wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What we think and what there's evidence for are diff things. Obviously everybody's entitled to their opinions. There is research that suggests, however… * priming people to remind them that they belong to a stereotyped group actually causes people to perform worse (stereotypically) -- this is called stereotype threat, lots available if you googles * guilting people about their culture's bad behavior / their personal…

The people who consciously choose to believe that women are inferior to men in software development, either due to misguided beliefs about genetics or intractable upbringing issues, aren't going to be persuaded by angry blog posts or anything else. They're already dug in to their positions. The people who benefit from alertness to privilege, culture, and bias issues are the ones running or helping influence the opera…

> Personally, I think the overt bias problem is so bad right now

See, that's where we disagree. I have watched many more men get torn down in violent fashion, neglected, and excluded, than women. I think the overall tech culture sucks period, I don't think it's got nearly so much to do with sexism as you do. Like my example about the guy who mocks women speakers for being women -- and turns around and mocks another speaker for writing Java. That's a sex-related expression of general douchenuggetry.

Remember that time Yehuda Katz interrupted a speaker at a meetup, said everything the speaker said was bullshit, and took over his talk? Yeah… nobody else does either. Cuz it was a man who was done wrong.

My husband actually is on the receiving end of way more vitriol than me even though I'm at least 300% as visible. And I know I've sometimes received extra consideration and protection because I'm a woman.

I'm not saying "Somebody pity the poor men." I'm also not saying women haven't suffered. Please don't think I am saying that. I'm questioning the root of the bad behavior, not how it feels to be on the receiving end.

Since bias is all in the interpretation of data, I'd love it if there was some hard data we could compare. I don't believe there is, though.

> after all, they won't have enough time to put in

The best way to solve this problem isn't by writing blog posts about how women with small kids can swim with the fishes, but by killing the culture of overwork. By starving it, of men and women, by showing them that A) it's harmful to them, and B) that it's unnecessary for their goals.

Laws would be nice, too.

I'd bet you any amount of money that this indirect approach is better, because nobody gets their hackles up OR STEREOTYPED if you tell them, "You can achieve what you want with 40 hours a week. Here's how." Instead of attacking bad behavior, you support good behavior. Instead of attacking identity and trying to change people, you show people who are already motivated (they want something) how to achieve their dreams. Nobody likes being lectured, but everybody wants to achieve something.

And, bonus, it's totally non-gendered… you help both men and women with the same stroke.

(The downside is it's not as sensationalistic. But I consider that an upside.)

If you've ever read my blog, you know that I practice what I preach here. I don't attack VCs or startups -- even though they richly "deserve" it -- I don't ever address anything to them, hoping they'll change. I go for their supply, the grist for their mill. Where I can actually hurt them… in the economics.

This is deliberate, not accidental. I've been doing the same thing since I started teaching marginalized visual thinkers how to code. Based on the emails I've received over the years, I probably helped more women get into Rails than any Rails For Women endeavor, not to mention non-neckbeard-types who were male, simply by delivering information in a way that supported a different learning style.

I don't think "shrink it and pink it" is a good way to sell products, and equally I don't believe that making general issues a women's issue is an effective way to create change.

EDIT: If you find the above approach interesting, consider reading Obliquity by John Kay. Here's an essay that sums up the book (the book is still worth reading): http://www.johnkay.com/2004/01/17/obliquity

Re: How to Break Out of the 'Female Entrepreneur' Trap

#67

Post by rdouble »

ahoyhere wrote: post #66
tptacek wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people who consciously choose to believe that women are inferior to men in software development, either due to misguided beliefs about genetics or intractable upbringing issues, aren't going to be persuaded by angry blog posts or anything else. They're already dug in to their positions. The people who benefit from alertness to privilege, culture, and bias issues are the ones running or helping influence the opera…

> Personally, I think the overt bias problem is so bad right now See, that's where we disagree. I have watched many more men get torn down in violent fashion, neglected, and excluded, than women. I think the overall tech culture sucks period, I don't think it's got nearly so much to do with sexism as you do. Like my example about the guy who mocks women speakers for being women -- and turns around and mocks another s…

Is tearing people down at work an American thing?

I worked in Japan, and there was a culture of overwork, but it wasn't anything like Glengarry Glen Ross.

Re: How to Break Out of the 'Female Entrepreneur' Trap

#68

Post by ahoyhere »

joshguthrie wrote: post #65
ahoyhere wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What we think and what there's evidence for are diff things. Obviously everybody's entitled to their opinions. There is research that suggests, however… * priming people to remind them that they belong to a stereotyped group actually causes people to perform worse (stereotypically) -- this is called stereotype threat, lots available if you googles * guilting people about their culture's bad behavior / their personal…

And here I was, thinking my girlfriend was the "odd one" just because she was (genuinely) laughing when a male coworker made a sexy(ist?) joke at her expense just ten minutes ago and never felt threatened of her own worth as a person in our male-dominated school (maybe 50 girls for about 5000 students). Though I do resent you a bit now, I was really thinking I had found "the one" but you've taken a part of what made…

Nobody is unique. If you only love her because she's unique, that's a… wait for it… identity problem.

Re: How to Break Out of the 'Female Entrepreneur' Trap

#69

Post by ahoyhere »

rdouble wrote: post #67
ahoyhere wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Personally, I think the overt bias problem is so bad right now See, that's where we disagree. I have watched many more men get torn down in violent fashion, neglected, and excluded, than women. I think the overall tech culture sucks period, I don't think it's got nearly so much to do with sexism as you do. Like my example about the guy who mocks women speakers for being women -- and turns around and mocks another s…

Is tearing people down at work an American thing? I worked in Japan, and there was a culture of overwork, but it wasn't anything like Glengarry Glen Ross.

No, it's not an American thing, it's an ego thing, and America has lots of great people and also a lot of huge egos and not a lot of cultural taboos to reign them in. Some call this the "rockstar" or "brogrammer" problem, but you'll find it in any industry where people think they're hot shit.

No doubt many people in Japan have large egos, but Japan also has institutionalized politeness.

Re: How to Break Out of the 'Female Entrepreneur' Trap

#70

Post by runarb »

danilocampos wrote: post #53
adsenseclient wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has nothing to do with over-representation. In our small company, we have several female employees, including programmers. We consider all applicants purely based on their merits, minus potential problems- fear of future litigation in this case. The fact that we are afraid to post this on the company blog, etc is simply the evidence of the diversity circus, that will speeds up selling the competitive American in…

I don't care about your small company – in the broader world of technology, lack of gender diversity is a problem. And you chose not to hire someone because she cared passionately about addressing that problem. That's fucked up, man. > We consider all applicants purely based on their merits, minus potential problems- fear of future litigation in this case. So you believe that if this person were terminated they would…

I don't care about your small company

You may not care about his company, but the hiring manager should. Small companys are vulnerable so they have to be extremely careful when hiring. A bad higher can quickly become both expensive and stressful.

Remember a small company have no professorial hr department and internal legal counsel that can help reduce this kinds of risk.

I am not saying that this necessary is right, but it is easy to get forced into an decision that is less then ideal.

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