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The Javascript Trap

gnu.org

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Re: The Javascript Trap

#111

Post by jerf »

pmarin wrote: post #110
FooBarWidget wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, the BSD license does not give _me_ the freedom to obtain the source of _your_ closed modifications, therefore making it less free for me. The GPL guarantees that I can obtain the sources of your modifications, making it more free for me than the BSD license.

It is true but... what are we talking about? freedom of the code or your freedom?

Exactly!

So rare that this debate actually gets to the real point, which is that the BSD license and the GPL optimized for two different "freedoms". Ne'er the twain shall meet.

Which is larger, a company of 100 selling $500 million a year of goods, or a company of 1000 selling $50 million a year of goods? Well, it depends on your metric. Two perfectly valid metrics produce two different results.

Re: The Javascript Trap

#112

Post by youngnh »

arebop wrote: post #15

"Current free browsers do not offer a facility to run your own modified version instead of the one delivered in the page." GreaseMonkey can do that in Chromium [ http://dev.chromium.org/developers/design-documents/user-scr... ]. Stallman mentions Greasefire later on, but it sounds like he might not clearly understand that Greasefire finds applicable GreaseMonkey scripts, while GreaseMonkey enables user scripting. He…

feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that GreaseMonkey scripts run on the same page, but in no way _replace_ the scripts a site serves.

what, I think, Stallman envisions is being able to use your local copy of Gmail instead of the one Google's serving you without any loss of functionality.

Re: The Javascript Trap

#113

Post by arebop »

youngnh wrote: post #112
arebop wrote: post #15

"Current free browsers do not offer a facility to run your own modified version instead of the one delivered in the page." GreaseMonkey can do that in Chromium [ http://dev.chromium.org/developers/design-documents/user-scr... ]. Stallman mentions Greasefire later on, but it sounds like he might not clearly understand that Greasefire finds applicable GreaseMonkey scripts, while GreaseMonkey enables user scripting. He…

feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that GreaseMonkey scripts run on the same page, but in no way _replace_ the scripts a site serves. what, I think, Stallman envisions is being able to use your local copy of Gmail instead of the one Google's serving you without any loss of functionality.

GreaseMonkey scripts can modify the page contents, and if only GreaseMonkey scripts could run before whatever JavaScript is included with the page could start, then it could completely replace the site's script rather than just modifying its behavior shortly after the site's script begins to run. I think so anyway, I haven't actually implemented this so I won't claim to know for sure that it can be done.

Chromium has this "early injection" feature for GreaseMonkey scripts, so that's one free browser for which it would be very easy to build Stallman's replacement feature. See the link I gave earlier in this thread and also http://www.mail-archive.com/chromium-discuss@googlegroups.co... for some background.

Re: The Javascript Trap

#114

Post by scorpioxy »

axod wrote: post #106
vinutheraj wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, I am sure a large number of the YC guys use free software on their servers and workstations, yet how many have given monetary support to the FSF in the form of donations or anything ? I won't be surprised to know the answer will be too few. Anyway, just give the man some respect, he is somewhat an extremist, but if it weren't for this guy you wouldn't be starting all these startups on shoestring budgets and…

>> "if it weren't for this guy you wouldn't be starting all these startups on shoestring budgets" I don't think you can really argue that at all. If he hadn't done some useful stuff, someone else would have.

I've heard this statement before. Often along the lines of "why should i do something to benefit others"...since its clear that somebody else will.

Now imagine for a second if everybody thought this way and left it to somebody else...

I say, if it is in your power to have a positive impact, then it becomes your responsibility.

Re: The Javascript Trap

#115

Post by axod »

scorpioxy wrote: post #114
axod wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> "if it weren't for this guy you wouldn't be starting all these startups on shoestring budgets" I don't think you can really argue that at all. If he hadn't done some useful stuff, someone else would have.

I've heard this statement before. Often along the lines of "why should i do something to benefit others"...since its clear that somebody else will. Now imagine for a second if everybody thought this way and left it to somebody else... I say, if it is in your power to have a positive impact, then it becomes your responsibility.

Did a single person invent the telephone, or the car, or computer?

No, several people happened to invent them at pretty much the same time. It's just luck as to which got the credit for 'inventing'.

Sure, if no one innovated, then we wouldn't progress, but that's not what I was saying.

I was just saying that the OP "if it weren't for this guy you wouldn't be starting all these startups on shoestring budgets" was wrong.

Re: The Javascript Trap

#116

Post by ibsulon »

randallsquared wrote: post #92
trapper wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What has he really accomplished? All he has done is shift the focus from desktop development to SAAS models. Why do you think all software companies are doing SAAS now? We can use gpl on the server and not have to release our code. Just like google. You get the best of both worlds. FOSS becomes the infrastructure. FOSS can't compete in this space because they can't afford the servers - you have to have revenue to mak…

I think that SAAS was inevitable anyway. You just can't control what people do with their own machines, unless they're not really their machines in fact, and that makes SAAS one of the few ways to make money from software in the long run. The main effect that Stallman had was to push openness farther and faster than it otherwise would have gone at this point, and to make FOSS a legitimate alternative to completely cl…

In many ways, the SAAS world is worse for free software. First, have you lost freedom 0. How many times have you heard about someone being kicked out of Facebook or Twitter, for example? You have lost an unstated freedom - the freedom to control your data as you see fit. (It's a lot easier to reverse engineer software that has your data than pull it off of a company's servers who have a vested interest in locking you in.)

Re: The Javascript Trap

#117

Post by randallsquared »

ibsulon wrote: post #116
randallsquared wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that SAAS was inevitable anyway. You just can't control what people do with their own machines, unless they're not really their machines in fact, and that makes SAAS one of the few ways to make money from software in the long run. The main effect that Stallman had was to push openness farther and faster than it otherwise would have gone at this point, and to make FOSS a legitimate alternative to completely cl…

In many ways, the SAAS world is worse for free software. First, have you lost freedom 0. How many times have you heard about someone being kicked out of Facebook or Twitter, for example? You have lost an unstated freedom - the freedom to control your data as you see fit. (It's a lot easier to reverse engineer software that has your data than pull it off of a company's servers who have a vested interest in locking you…

You absolutely have the freedom to control your data. What you can't control is their data about you. You shouldn't be able to control someone else's data, no matter what it's about.
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