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The best programmers are the quickest to Google

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Re: The best programmers are the quickest to Google

#151

Microsoft recruiters are doing their rounds for Seattle, and I was just asked over the phone how I would implement a quick sort. The answer I wanted to give would have been something like this blog post. As a developer I would never waste valuable time trying to roll my own version of an algorithm that's probably available on Wikipedia and optimized for every programming language imaginable. I guess what they were lo…

If I worked at Microsoft?

I'd implement a Quicksort by checking within the existing codebases that I had access to and that were in the same language to see if it had already been done, then patch what I found to match my needs for comparisons, etc.

Note: one big reason for this is licensing - if it was developed in-house, odds are that licensing issues are a non-factor but if it came from "The Internets" then life may get strange. Strange is bad.

Re: The best programmers are the quickest to Google

#152
post #107
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. My doctor, who is a hotshot young doctor at a hotshot medical school, impressed me by telling me she needed to look up my symptoms and then showing me what she found (and, to be fair, also referring me to an expert). Depending on field, part of being an expert is also knowing where to look for field-specific expert information. Google is a much better search engine than the NCBI PubMed interface, but I kn…

My friends daughter was born with a lung disorder that showed up in the first week after leaving the hospital. The local hospital almost killed her in incorrect diagnosing and panic and she was emergency flighted to Childrens. Two of the doctors there quickly came back with a preliminary diagnosis of congenital lobar emphysema after a few internet searches on the symptoms. They had printed what information they could…

Google (and others like IsabelHealthCare) help you catch the zebras you missed while looking at the horses.

Re: The best programmers are the quickest to Google

#153

What was life like before Google? Sure there was documentation, and code comments, and senior devs you could ask. But surely that was less than Google? Or perhaps the scale of problems were less vast compared to now, so the amount of info you would get by Googling now was unnecessary back then.

When I started learning programming it was book (often terribly shitty ones, full of mistakes and non-working listings) and hear-and-say.

I started at 11 years old or so. I didn't yet have a modem (not before I was 16 or so).

So it was trial and error and trying to figure things out. I remember printing a huge assembly program on a dot-matrix printer and going to a friend's place with the listing, explaining him that the routine would work for a few seconds then crash. Then he read the stuff and after a while he found the error : I was using 'jsr' instead of 'jmp', leading to an eventual stack blow.

And there were also "scene disks" or "news disk" from the scene or whatever they were called that we would copy from our friends. I remember one from some scandinavian group (I was in France), in english, where they were explaining various sorting algorithms and where/when we should use them in intros / demos (before cracked games).

It was all a "black art" because these stuff (learning assembly to code intros / demos / cracktros [but they weren't called cracktros yet IIRC]) weren't in books, nor in magazines.

Then came my first modem (9600 bauds) and pirate BBSes (and writing intros for these BBSes) and suddenly a whole world of knowledge opened to us. It was magic.

Then came my first Internet ISP. Long before Google and no need for Google : old search engine were sufficient to find gems (Like Fravia's tools of the trade tutorials to learn how to pirate games on the PC, very convenient when you just arrived from the C64 / Amiga scene).

And of course there was Usenet. Usenet and a good kill files was immensely more useful than StackOverflow. Heck, the amount of knowledge on Usenet still probably dwarfs SO today.

I'd say DejaNews (later bought by Google and more or less became part of Google Groups) was the most important search engine of them all when it came to code. A good Usenet reader was useful to stay up to date and to ask/answer question while DejaNews contained all Usenet's archive (and a search engine).

That's what I remember, more or less... : )

Re: The best programmers are the quickest to Google

#154
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A good whiteboard interviewer will be those things for you. And language details are less important -- "well, let's both agree a for loop has this syntax for now"

I'm not talking about loop syntax or stdlib argument order. I'll google around for algorithms or concepts or data structures too. I'll bring up the docs and study them to figure out what data structures I've got so as to do the least amount of work. Do you want to test the things I've already learned, or how quickly and neatly I can actually get things done ? And it's far too easy to start going down a long and windi…

I applied for a job posting at Khan Academy and ran into exactly this kind of interview.

It shows absolutely nothing about me other than I am not a good test taker, and without incrementally debugging my programs I am a fairly worthless programmer.

I dont see how putting someone on the spot like that really extracts any knowledge about the type of person they are.

All of my peers describe me as 'the best programmer they know' yet every programming interview I've ever gone to in this style doesn't work out for me. Frustrating.

Re: The best programmers are the quickest to Google

#155
post #13
post #8

"The best doctors are the quickest to Google." "The best scientists are the quickest to Google." "The best engineers are the quickest to Google." Are the above statements true? Quite possibly. I would argue that the best in their fields are those writing the answers that are indexed by Google to be found by others. However, usually the best in their fields are also good at using Google. Unfortunately, the worst in th…

My doctor said "I don't know, I have to go look that up". He's probably going to stay my doctor for a very long time for that one sentence.

I think that is cultural;

a practician in Latin countries (in Europe) would loose any credibility by acknowledging they have to check a knowledge base (although it does make sense). In a similar fashion a teacher would literally loose face in front of his student for recognizing he does not know the answer to a question on his subject from the top of his head.

That said, and by experience, I have seen plenty doctors checking their books on illness to match symptoms, but they did that in such a serious manner, you would believe they were just needing confirmation of memorized knowledge. Whereas I have seen plenty teachers/lecturers just dismissing the answer as obvious or the question as irrelevant.

Re: The best programmers are the quickest to Google

#156
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 3. Hire a professional while you go and do revenue generating work. Nothing wrong with acquiring a new skill. And next time you know how to do it.

YAGNI. There's nothing wrong with not acquiring new skill either. It depends on how soon/often you will need to use the skill in the future. Also on how urgent you need to do it if the need arises.

It also depends on the amount of revenue you can generate if you hire a professional and get on with your work.

If we assume that the professional's fee is constant (doesn't depend on your income), then someone with very high income can waste only minutes on the task before it would have been cheaper to hire a professional, whereas someone with low income can devote a few hours to learning how to do it themselves and still make up for lost earnings by avoiding the cost of hiring a professional.

Re: The best programmers are the quickest to Google

#157
post #66

Does anyone else find themselves Googling the same question over and over again? How do you deal with that?

Keep a blog where you "document" any issues you keep running into. By the time you're done with the post you'll either remember it or if you don't you'll know exactly where to find the answer if you need it.

I would actually recommend Wiki (specifically wikimedia) software for this doing this.

It can act very much like a blog, but also brings along features of many Knowledgebases, like versioning of information. Sometimes problems evolve, and being able to keep track of that is beneficial.

Re: The best programmers are the quickest to Google

#158
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny because that's perfectly backwards. :) Machine learning is a model of this thing we observe in ourselves. Don't mistake a picture of a pipe for the pipe itself. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Treachery_of_Images http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reification_(fallacy)

I'm not sure what your point is. What is the image, and what is the actual object?

I was replying to wting, but HN doesn't let me reply to a reply by the same author as a way to combat back-and-forth style arguments, I guess.

He said that experts doing that is "trained pattern matching gained through experience, i.e. machine learning."

But that's backwards: machine learning in this style is a model of something we observe in ourselves. The thing that's in us is the pipe, the machine learning algorithm is the picture.

Re: The best programmers are the quickest to Google

#159
post #32

>why in the world would you want to spend 2 hours trying to figure it out yourself? I am sure a large portion of HN-ers (myself included) enjoy doing exactly that. I want to spend my day solving problems , not googling shit.

I'm glad I finally saw someone say this. It seems like we're a dying breed: those of us who got into CS for the sheer enjoyment of solving problems. Making fancy things happen on the screen is simply a positive side effect for us. I abhor that development these days is 90% Googling shit and 10% actual creativity. I go out of my way to keep my day job interesting.
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