Live data from Hacker News

Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

arstechnica.com

151–160 of 186 posts

Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Playing DF, is roughly analogous to reading the Illiad, or a similarly complex work of Literature. Now DF isn't the Illiad of the gaming world, yet. But the experience of parsing it, generally ends up expanding your perspective of what games should be, and how they should be played. Its pretty much the serious gamer's game.

I'm by no means saying I want the game spoonfed to its players with "press X to win" cutscenes, but I do think it could take some steps toward usability, that's all. Also, what is a "serious gamer"? What does that even mean?

A "serious gamer" takes gaming too seriously, pretty much by definition.

Then again, I say that, but I've been tempted to try this game out multiple times. What does that make me?

Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#152

Great explanation of DF's bodily combat damage modeling: http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/95316-complex-dama... > DF's damage system is just as complex and oftentimes difficult to keep track of as the rest of the game. Instead of simple health points or separate body parts DF simulates each individual by the sum of it's parts. This starts at the single parts of a body, then adds layers of tissue, muscle and…

The UI in Dwarf Fortress is completely indefensible. Even when you do understand how to play the game it's a kludge. Let alone the fact that AN ASCII GAME CAN BRING AN 8 CORE DESKTOP TO A CRAWL. (The ASCII is actually rendered in OPENGL for performance which is a joke in and of itself because 99% of the system resources are spent poorly simulating stagnant blocks of air rock and dirt with nothing happening to them).…

Keeping the game a purposefully obtuse niche thing might make sense, depending on the values of the developer. It's possible to not be interested growing the dev team creatively, like most novelists are perfectly happy just writing by themselves. Solo gamedev is cheap, you basically just need to feed yourself and be able to run a computer, so in case you just want to work on the game all day, a very modest wage has you covered there.

Extra money never hurts though, so why not try to grow as much as you can? Well, there's the thing of interacting with your player base, which might be the most interesting social interaction you get if you live and breathe the game. The more successful you grow, the bigger the player base grows and the bigger the status difference between you and a random player becomes.

If it's just you and a few dozen players, it's basically just a social hangout with you providing some interesting entertainment. If it's a few hundred players, it's no longer quite that, but it's still a manageable community where you can have discussions with people. Once things go big enough, the emergent community stuff isn't going to work anymore, and you might be too big of a deal yourself to be able to do random chat and not have things go weird. You might end up having to either get some people as community moderators (you wanted to develop a game full-time, not work as a manager, remember), or just go into radio silence and lose the social venue. And now working on the game is crappier than it used to be, like providing entertainment for a social hangout, but now you need an opaque wall between you and the other people who keep throwing beer bottles at you and each other, dismantling the furniture and lighting fires. So why were you doing this again?

Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#153
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the game 11 years old? What is a reasonable amount of time to spend before moving to stage 2?

> Isn't the game 11 years old? What is a reasonable amount of time to spend before moving to stage 2? I'm guessing you don't program?

I am of the opinion that beyond a certain level of complexity Stage one depends on Stage two. DF has been there for quite a while. Stage 2 should be done in tandem with stage 1.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#154
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amen to that. Where does everyone find their sense of entitlement?

I don't feel entitled I feel a tragic sense of loss knowing how much better it could be.

Eh, I don't know. Part of what makes Dwarf Fortress unique is its meticulous attention to detail. Tarn has so far been able to concentrate so fully on the game's simulation aspects by mostly ignoring things like the UI and optimization.

Could he hire on another person to work on the non-simulation bits? Perhaps. But that takes money. Tarn makes donation information public, and he makes between $40k-50k a year before taxes and the ~$800 a month he pays his brother for the help he provides. Enough to support himself, but not nearly enough to hire on another full time person.

Not to mention there are already other games out there attempting to emulate Dwarf Fortress (Gnomoria and Towns immediately come to mind) in a more user friendly form, but neither of them yet come close to intricacy and scale of Dwarf Fortress.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't feel entitled I feel a tragic sense of loss knowing how much better it could be.

Eh, I don't know. Part of what makes Dwarf Fortress unique is its meticulous attention to detail. Tarn has so far been able to concentrate so fully on the game's simulation aspects by mostly ignoring things like the UI and optimization. Could he hire on another person to work on the non-simulation bits? Perhaps. But that takes money. Tarn makes donation information public, and he makes between $40k-50k a year before…

If he opened up the code I'm sure people would do it for free. If he doesn't want to open up more of the code I bet there are scads of people who would do it for a cut of the profits. And yes if he doesn't improve things eventually a competitor will mop the floor with him.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#156
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is (was?) actually an isometric add-on. It really only makes things slower and more confusing as far as I can see. The UI isn't the part bringing one's computer to its knees, rather the very detailed simulation going on (and a whole lot of pathfinding over ever-changing maps). His goal has always been a sort of "fantasy world simulator" which is anything but simple. I should know... I helped find a ton of physi…

Constant thanks to the people on the forums who do some of the very cool data gathering. How'd you pull the data for saguaro wood?

Empirically. I got my hands on a piece and measured the density myself. It's roughly 430 kg/m^3.

Still have a box full of the damn stuff, actually, just in case someone can figure out any half-sensible way to translate the other properties into something DF uses.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#157
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is (was?) actually an isometric add-on. It really only makes things slower and more confusing as far as I can see. The UI isn't the part bringing one's computer to its knees, rather the very detailed simulation going on (and a whole lot of pathfinding over ever-changing maps). His goal has always been a sort of "fantasy world simulator" which is anything but simple. I should know... I helped find a ton of physi…

I didn't play it, but when I watched some videos of adventure mode (yeah I know, that's missing ALL of it, but the simulation is the same, yes?) on youtube I couldn't help but notice silly things like breaking bones and "bruising the brain" by throwing snow at things, or that dude who killed a bunch of wolves by repeatedly throwing a dead wolf. I am sure there is a lot of simulation going on, but how realistic is it?

The simulation is pretty wonky, yes. There's quite a gap between things that are somewhat reasonably simulated and things which are... not. Throwing is pretty OP though.

Also try dropping a thousand socks on someone. Its hilarious.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#158
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is (was?) actually an isometric add-on. It really only makes things slower and more confusing as far as I can see. The UI isn't the part bringing one's computer to its knees, rather the very detailed simulation going on (and a whole lot of pathfinding over ever-changing maps). His goal has always been a sort of "fantasy world simulator" which is anything but simple. I should know... I helped find a ton of physi…

Yes, as I described in the first paragraph rendering it in openGL is a joke in terms of the performance gain. The real room for improvement lies in the simulations. Ignoring the crippling UI, there is vast room for algorithmic improvement in nearly every aspect of the game. We don't need a button for everything, we could have context sensitive menus that change.

Well yes, there are constant suggestions for UI improvements and menu redesign on the forums.

Little known fact, there was a 3D predecessor to DF. This is what it looked like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ARLSii23w8

Yes, that person is dying to a bush. A named bush. And that animation... oh man.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#159
post #85
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...and it uses text in an annoying way. It renders the text in OpenGL, which is one of the reasons why a 'text mode' game is so resource intensive.

> It renders the text in OpenGL, which is one of the reasons why a 'text mode' game is so resource intensive. No, that is not really resource intensive. The massive simulation behind the graphics is resource intensive.

I guess I'll have to check it out, though anything so involved might be too time intensive for me.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#160
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Normally the DF executable works like a terminal emulator, rendering the glyphs using GL or such. You can however run dwarf fortress in a console (ie, to run it over SSH) by changing the configuration file, and then it is a true text game. BTW it doesn't use only ASCII but a larger subset of unicode. ASCII would be a very restricted set of characters to use.

> to run it over SSH Cloud gaming. I like it.

multiplayer next?
Post reply on HN