Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

overit.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 86 posts

Re: Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

#51

Post by stevenameyer »

The number of comments on this thread stating sexism exists in all areas and seemly dismiss this as an issue that needs to be addressed in our industry is very surprising to me.

Just because the problem is not specific to the tech industry doesn't mean we shouldn't be trying to solve it. If women feel uncomfortable working or contributing to the industry because of their gender then we are missing out on possible contributions from a massive section of the population.

Will cases of sexism always exist? Probably, their will always be a bad apple or two. But we need to work to make these these cases the exception to how the industry works. We need people to feel safe contributing regardless of who they are. If you have something to contribute you should be able to, that is one of the things I personally love about this industry. Just because we can never fully solve a problem doesn't mean we shouldn't try to minimize it.

Re: Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

#52

Post by autarch »

npfmn wrote: post #32
autarch wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with most of your points except for #4. There's nothing inherently wrong with flirting at a conference. Flirting is a very natural type of interaction for people, and asking people to not do it at all doesn't seem realistic. However, men should not assume that flirting means that a woman is inviting you to touch her or sleep with her. In fact, she may not even be flirting. Men often misinterpret simple friend…

If women say there is something wrong with flirting at a conference, then there is something wrong with it. It's a professional event. Why is a professional event even seen as "an opportunity for a casual hook up"? To say that flirting is "natural" is quite a claim; while it might be prevalent in our culture, that doesn't mean it's natural.

At the last programming conference I attended, I saw a man and woman holding hands. These two people had not, to the best of my knowledge, met before the conference. I don't know how far this relationship went (not that it's my business), but it was clearly mutual, and it started at the conference.

Conferences are both professional and social. In fact, it's hard to think of anything that is purely professional. People form short- and long-term relationships through all sorts of initial meetings.

I don't see any women saying "all flirting all is wrong at a conference". I see them saying they don't want to be harassed. The two things are not the same. I've talked to women at length about these issues and I've championed the adoption of strong anti-harassment policies at conferences I speak at (http://blog.urth.org/2011/09/05/conference-code-of-conduct-c...).

Maybe we just have different definitions of flirting. To get back to the original article, the Twitter exchange that it highlights is not flirting. It's just a man being an asshole. I also note that the article makes no mention of the word "flirt". It talks about "harassment", "groping", and "sexism".

Re: Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

#53

Post by oh_sigh »

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #45
oh_sigh wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's amazing you know the inner lives and decisions of all, or even a large group of women. Tell me where you get your diving powers.

Please stop. Stop this. Stop being dismissive. Stop being condescending. Stop trying to intimidate a woman in tech who is trying to speak up about the pervasive sexism that demonstrably deters women from entering the field and then pushes women out when they do try to enter. Stop the bullying. Stop the patronizing. Just stop.

> Stop being dismissive. Stop being condescending.

I am dismissive regardless of gender when poorly argued points are made. It would be sexist of me to "take it easy" on a person because of their gender. If you feel like I am laying particularly hard into this poster, then I encourage you to peruse my post history and verify for yourself that I do not modify my strategies based on gender.

> Stop trying to intimidate a woman in tech who is trying to speak up about the pervasive sexism that demonstrably deters women from entering the field and then pushes women out when they do try to enter.

You say "demonstrably", but that is the exact point that is being argued. You are just taking it for a given. I am sorry, but I would need data to accept the claim. From my personal experience, I have not seen women driven out of the tech industry. I have seen a shortage of women in the tech industry, but I also saw a shortage of women in my college tech classes, and a shortage of women in my high school tech classes, and a shortage of women in my middle school tech classes. I could be wrong, but I don't think girls in 6th grade were discouraged from signing up for a programming course because they were afraid of sexism from the rest of their class. If anyone drives women out of tech, it is their parents who instill gender roles into their children from an early age.

> Stop the bullying. Stop the patronizing. Just stop

You call it bullying. I call it asking for data in a sarcastic manner.

Re: Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

#54

Post by [deleted] »

npfmn wrote: post #36
Hairy_Sandwich wrote: post #27

There is nothing in the article (IMO) that is unique to the tech sector. These complaints could be made of men in general anywhere in any industry or context. Some guy can put a hand on your knee at the home show too, but not a lot of men go to those events (I assume, I wouldn't know since I don't go to them either). However, there will always be a set of socially retarded people, there will always be horny people, a…

"they should react angrily" That might be part of the solution, but isn't it important for us to make a proactive effort to do whatever we can to encourage a professional, non-sexist environment? You say there will always be horny people, but isn't it our place to make this a taboo? None of this may be unique to the tech sector, but aren't we a forward-looking industry that isn't afraid of changing the world?

[deleted]

Re: Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

#55

Post by oh_sigh »

steveklabnik wrote: post #43
oh_sigh wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's amazing you know the inner lives and decisions of all, or even a large group of women. Tell me where you get your diving powers.

Actually, the statistics show an incredibly high attrition rate. No getting in heads required.

Can you link me to these statistics that you know about? And can you link me to statistics from other fields? And can you link me to statistics which talk about why the women left the field?

What if women leave the field because they can't countenance working long hours with little social interaction like many men can? That could account for the high attrition rate while not being because of any sexism in the sector.

Re: Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

#56

Post by Mz »

danso wrote: post #8

I'm disappointed that this post focuses on an incident of groping. Not because the incident is "not a big deal" or that it's isolated, but because it's the type of incident that nearly everyone can agree is beyond the pale and should never be tolerated by society. Even sexists. I think the more prevalent problem is the underlying sexism, the institutional bias, the reluctance to speak up, the fear of being judged "th…

Just wondering if you have any thoughts on solving the problem of "institutional bias." It seems to me that specific incidents get focused on because it is a thread to pull so we can start to unravel the whole mess. "Institutional bias" seems like a framing of the problem which makes it harder to find a starting point, not easier. So I am wondering if you have thought about what to do/where to start to solve that.

Thanks.

Re: Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

#57

Post by oh_sigh »

mediacrisis wrote: post #50
oh_sigh wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's amazing you know the inner lives and decisions of all, or even a large group of women. Tell me where you get your diving powers.

If only there were some sort of world wide network of information where women could write about their experiences and share them with total strangers. I guess we'll have to leave it up to the occult for now.

Have you read Steven Pinkers "The Better Angels of Our Nature"? In it, he argues that even though violent crime is on the decline, and is at a historical low, the perception of violent crime is at a historical high, because we are bombarded with stories about the few violent crimes that happen across the globe.

Could it be the same pattern at play with blogs on the internet?

Re: Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

#58

Post by RyanMcGreal »

oh_sigh wrote: post #53
RyanMcGreal wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please stop. Stop this. Stop being dismissive. Stop being condescending. Stop trying to intimidate a woman in tech who is trying to speak up about the pervasive sexism that demonstrably deters women from entering the field and then pushes women out when they do try to enter. Stop the bullying. Stop the patronizing. Just stop.

> Stop being dismissive. Stop being condescending. I am dismissive regardless of gender when poorly argued points are made. It would be sexist of me to "take it easy" on a person because of their gender. If you feel like I am laying particularly hard into this poster, then I encourage you to peruse my post history and verify for yourself that I do not modify my strategies based on gender. > Stop trying to intimidate…

Anyone who is interested in an honest discussion about sexism in the tech industry can easily discover the data, which exists in abundance. If you can't be bothered to do a modicum of research before insulting and belittling a peer who is trying to have that discussion, then you are part of the problem.

Re: Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

#59

Post by oh_sigh »

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #58
oh_sigh wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Stop being dismissive. Stop being condescending. I am dismissive regardless of gender when poorly argued points are made. It would be sexist of me to "take it easy" on a person because of their gender. If you feel like I am laying particularly hard into this poster, then I encourage you to peruse my post history and verify for yourself that I do not modify my strategies based on gender. > Stop trying to intimidate…

Anyone who is interested in an honest discussion about sexism in the tech industry can easily discover the data, which exists in abundance. If you can't be bothered to do a modicum of research before insulting and belittling a peer who is trying to have that discussion, then you are part of the problem .

> can easily discover the data, which exists in abundance.

I'm interested in knowing what sources you're referring to. You would do every single reader of your post a favor by posting a link to it, instead of referring to its existence but not giving anyone any way to find what you are referring.

Your response makes me think that you don't actually have a specific study or paper you are referring to - you are just referring to some gut feeling you have about the topic.

Re: Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

#60

Post by nacker »

papermashea wrote: post #3

I have had the misfortune of seeing how very deep this sexism goes- it's not just sexual harassment that's an issue (though I will say, it's the most pressing), but also the prejudices women meet in the tech world. It's as if there are two major discussions about women's roles in tech: women are either assumed to be underqualified or over glamorized. Get more women into tech, and then get over having them there.

How about a government mandated quota of females in every industry or company? The EU is introducing this kind of enlightened, progressive approach to gender equality on company boards:

'The Commission wants to see more women represented in the making of economically significant decisions and has proposed a minimum harmonisation measure binding on all listed companies to create a level landscape. By 2020 all European listed companies should have at least 40% of their non-executive directors from the "under-represented gender". The Commission considers this project to be part of the completion of the single market project as well as an initiative to remedy an inequality. The measure is expected to impact upon 5,000 companies from across the Union.'

http://wedlakebell.com/articles-and-comment/2013/02/08/corpo...

Post reply on HN