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Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

arstechnica.com

131–140 of 186 posts

Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#131

Great explanation of DF's bodily combat damage modeling: http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/95316-complex-dama... > DF's damage system is just as complex and oftentimes difficult to keep track of as the rest of the game. Instead of simple health points or separate body parts DF simulates each individual by the sum of it's parts. This starts at the single parts of a body, then adds layers of tissue, muscle and…

The UI in Dwarf Fortress is completely indefensible. Even when you do understand how to play the game it's a kludge. Let alone the fact that AN ASCII GAME CAN BRING AN 8 CORE DESKTOP TO A CRAWL. (The ASCII is actually rendered in OPENGL for performance which is a joke in and of itself because 99% of the system resources are spent poorly simulating stagnant blocks of air rock and dirt with nothing happening to them).…

The horrendous interface is likely a symptom of the poor quality of the codebase he developed for Dwarf Fortress.

Look at his other projects, such as Liberal Crime Squad (http://www.bay12games.com/lcs/). The code for LCS available on that site is atrocious. I know, because I helped to convert the 38K lines (yes 38 THOUSAND LINES) of code in a SINGLE C++ FILE into something that is actually maintainable when he open sourced the game (fun fact: the IDE I used back then would crash when opening that file).

The reason for this is clear, like you say, Tarn comes from a physics/math background. He does not seem to be very experienced at software engineering (at least he wasn't 9 years ago when LCS was open-sourced). I would not be surprised if the Dwarf Fortress codebase is just as inscrutable as the resulting game.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding the inefficiency of the engine. There is something seriously FUBAR with the design when you must choose the size of simulation (the rendered rows and columns of ASCII representing the playable zone in the window not the physical dimensions) at the beginning of a game before embarking. The performance of the game is directly proportional to the number of blocks in this zone + the number of dwarfs and NOT the…

"There is something seriously FUBAR with the design..." I call shenanigans. I would like you to point out another reality simulator where you can dynamically resize the simulation. Can you ask SimCity "hey, generate me a few extra acres of The World around my periphery"? Or chop it back off again? A fixed-size simulation is the norm. Anything else is fairly exceptional (and even Minecraft has caveats). What's differe…

I wrote a nbody gravity simulation that allowed this at one time. http://code.google.com/p/stableorbit

Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#133

I've noticed a lot of people in this topic complaining about graphics/UI. I'll give you that the UI does need an overall badly, but there's a reason for the graphics: the sheer complexity of the game, and the fact that his last game's development stalled because of graphics. In the "sheer complexity" department, imagine trying to depict any of the following well graphically: randomly generated artifacts made of rando…

I really think that this game could use some people from the demoscene to create emergent algorithmic graphics for it. It seems like it'd be a good match.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"UI critiques of Dwarf Fortress are incredibly valid." Yes, and no one has ever marketed the game as anything that's Ready For The Prime Time, possessed of a decent UI, or anything other than something that's really fun and interesting despite being an early development version of someone's cool pet project. You can come back and complain some more in earnest when you've paid money for it. :) -- Postscript: If some f…

Just because something is free by no means makes it beyond reproach.

And just because it can be reproached doesn't make it any less tiresome to the people who have been hearing it for years.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the game 11 years old? What is a reasonable amount of time to spend before moving to stage 2?

As long as he wants - it's his project.

Amen to that. Where does everyone find their sense of entitlement?

Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#136
post #94

I've noticed a lot of people in this topic complaining about graphics/UI. I'll give you that the UI does need an overall badly, but there's a reason for the graphics: the sheer complexity of the game, and the fact that his last game's development stalled because of graphics. In the "sheer complexity" department, imagine trying to depict any of the following well graphically: randomly generated artifacts made of rando…

It is not just the ASCII. He could write a more useful GUI. With buttons and better mouse control, it would be much appealing for the crowds.

The developer often chooses to write highly detailed simulations of, say, realistic glacier movements rather than fix known problems. It's his game, he's beholden to no one, and when he wants to skip the boring bugfixes to work on things he finds interesting, he can just go for it. I think he'd continue to code the game even if nobody ever played it.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#137
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "It's also recommended to pick up a freshman textbook on geology to understand the game's many types of rocks" I guess you need to be a major in biology, geology and medicine just to play this game properly? :)

After you see your fourth dwarf carry on fighting with a "torn brain", you give up on conventional ideas of biology and medicine. Then again, dwarves are not the brightest. Possibly as long as the CNS is intact they're fully capable of continuing about their various tasks.

There are plenty of stories like Phineas Gauge that demonstrate the importance of placement in brain damage.

Seeing a dwarf fight with a torn brain isn't unrealistic.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#138

> There are instructions within the game, and without in the form > of wikis and forums, but I wanted to begin at the most basic > level, if only to come at the game from a recently trendy (if > controversial) design paradigm on discoverability that's flowed > from mobile apps to many new indie games: "if you see a UI > walkthrough, they blew it". Some of the author's other points are valid, and DF definitely has som…

"Not R-ingTFM isn't really a reasonable way to review this game." This. If the author had spent half as much time bothering to do research as he did coming up with florid expressions about how this screen was like a bunch of "Greek symbols" impervious to the casual glance, then the reviewer may have had more fun Fun.

It's almost as though you're saying one has to put effort and motivation to derive pleasure from something!

Spoonfeeding is the way of the future, and anything else is second-rate design.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After you see your fourth dwarf carry on fighting with a "torn brain", you give up on conventional ideas of biology and medicine. Then again, dwarves are not the brightest. Possibly as long as the CNS is intact they're fully capable of continuing about their various tasks.

There are plenty of stories like Phineas Gauge that demonstrate the importance of placement in brain damage. Seeing a dwarf fight with a torn brain isn't unrealistic.

Some or all of this might be wrong, however my understanding is that Gage was able to speak within _minutes_ (not _seconds_) of his injury, and walk with a little help to the cart, where he sat until he was able to vomit a bit of brain out in front of a (presumably either horrified or intensely interested) physician.

He was then very ill for months afterwards, barely mumbling his responses to people. This was with the best care available at the time.

Imagining that his injury were caused by a Dragon rather than a crowbar (or whatever it was the tool was, some kind of iron bar for poking at explosives with I believe), I don't think he could have continued the fight.

If there are cases that show someone fighting with a torn brain, I'm definitely extremely interested in them!

Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#140
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because something is free by no means makes it beyond reproach.

And just because it can be reproached doesn't make it any less tiresome to the people who have been hearing it for years.

Maybe one of these years it'll get fixed and you won't have to hear it anymore.
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