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No more remote work at Yahoo

37signals.com

101–110 of 217 posts

Re: No more remote work at Yahoo

#101
TL;DR: Here's the thing: All engineering is "working remotely" because being "remote" is simply a matter of isolation. This is why even people in the same room use headphones, IM, etc. Everything that's not working remotely (eg: isolation) is "meetings" and the overhead of distractions. The only advantage of having engineers in the same office is a lower cost of meetings. The disadvantage is it makes engineering harder.

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This decision shows me that Meyer doesn't respect or understand engineering culture. She's bought into the management BS "accidental collaboration" rationalization for industrial age butts-in-seats ideology.

Engineering culture comes, to a great degree, from the way you treat engineers and the process of engineering.

Treating engineers like cubicle bunnies who just can't wait to get interrupted by their Pointy Haired Boss is not conducive to building a good engineering culture.

In fact, requiring people to be in the office shows an anti-engineering mentality, because engineering, an effort of the mind, requires situations that are best for the mind.

Two key things enable good engineering: Collaboration (which requires communication) and coherent thought (which requires silence or peace or the isolation from interruption necessary to do it.)

This means that even if every engineer is in the same room, they're going to start "working remotely" by isolating each other via the use of headphones, and a preference for non-interruptive working (Eg: send email, or an IM rather than walk over and tap the engineer on the shoulder.)

It's true that in an office getting together in a conference room to has something out is easier and more convenient, but the tradeoff is that even with all the isolation people try to put into effect interruption creep is a real thing- eg: meetings, etc.

Working remotely prevents these interruptions at the slight cost of a higher level of effort needed to have a "meeting" (using a virtual whiteboard or just a phone call or whatever.)

So, if you spend most of your time in meetings, then you need everyone together.

If you value engineering and spend most of your time engineering, then whether people are together or apart physically, they are all isolating each other and effectively "Working remotely".

IM, Email and other collaboration tools that allow engineer isolation work as well whether the engineer is in the office or across the country.

Plus, lets not forget the minimum 2 hours of lost productivity that comes form requiring people to go to an office- either the commute (and the resulting need to get into work)-or the long lunches at those free cafeterias, and the endless cycle of distractions that are accepted non-work in offices. A "15 minute coffee break" at the office really has a 20-40 minute work interruption, because it often involves other people, while that same break working remotely can easily be exactly 15 minutes, and likely will be shorter because 10 minutes is enough to get the same level of relaxation from the day.

Almost everything in an office is designed to distract you from engineering, and the cost of this overhead is significant.

Re: No more remote work at Yahoo

#102
post #53

37signals comes down against a decree of no more remote working. I am shocked (shocked that there is gambling going on in this establishment). Much like hiring practices this is and will continue to be a divisive issue. This one however seems to be largely driven by personal preference: if you want to work from home, you can't understand why anyone is against it. If you don't, then you do. I fall in the camp of not n…

... I've gone through phases where I don't get into work until 3pm. A guy I know decided he would take Thursdays off and work on Saturday instead. My manager forgot I was going on vacation for a few days and I didn't get a call or email ... With that statement, you're really highlighting the trust your company has with you . Unfortunately, it seems Yahoo is communicating that it no longer trusts any of its employees…

Having worked mostly remotely for a company that was going slowly down the drain, I can say that I was more productive.. But I was the first to jump ship when their buyout looked unfavorable to engineering.

Companies in yahoo's state don't necessarily care about current output (what good is more of what isn't working?)

A report I reviewed in the past indicated remote workers are more likely to walk away when a bad changes are occurring. For yahoo, that means now and/or soon.

Re: No more remote work at Yahoo

#104
post #93

I worked for Yahoo in the years surrounding the Microsoft debacle. Let me tell you in no uncertain terms that Yahoo was the worst company I worked for. I had very little work to do. Period. End of statement. I spent most of my time doing practically nothing except playing ping pong and foosball and getting paid for it. A lot of my coworkers and a lot of Yahoos were in the same boat. Needless to say, that once the Mic…

"Anyone who is happy working in the environment that was Yahoo over the past 5 years is not an A player by any stretch, so it's safe to assume that you can afford to lose them." Great comment.

It's high-grade snark, but the people who implemented Hadoop or Yahoo pipes do not seem to be particularly stupid.

Re: No more remote work at Yahoo

#105

I worked for Yahoo in the years surrounding the Microsoft debacle. Let me tell you in no uncertain terms that Yahoo was the worst company I worked for. I had very little work to do. Period. End of statement. I spent most of my time doing practically nothing except playing ping pong and foosball and getting paid for it. A lot of my coworkers and a lot of Yahoos were in the same boat. Needless to say, that once the Mic…

"Anyone who is happy working in the environment that was Yahoo over the past 5 years is not an A player by any stretch, so it's safe to assume that you can afford to lose them."

Ah but you're not just chopping off the right edge of the bell curve, you're shifting the entire curve to the left. A non-innovative company like yahoo can trivially survive shedding the innovators, but can't survive a system wide forklift downgrade.

Maybe "in this economy" they could have gotten a C- grade dude who needs to work at home on Fridays for whatever reason, well, now they'll be lucky to get a D+ grade dude.

Re: No more remote work at Yahoo

#106
post #53

37signals comes down against a decree of no more remote working. I am shocked (shocked that there is gambling going on in this establishment). Much like hiring practices this is and will continue to be a divisive issue. This one however seems to be largely driven by personal preference: if you want to work from home, you can't understand why anyone is against it. If you don't, then you do. I fall in the camp of not n…

If your job is such that it requires you to be on site, for example mowing lawns, being a cashier, dealing with customers in person, then yes I agree that you should be on-site every day because it makes sense.

However, if your job is "software engineer" or any other job which 100% of the work can be done over instant message, email, teleconference bridge, screen sharing, etc then No, I don't agree that you should be on-site the majority of the time.

The decision that a manager makes to allow one of their staff members to work remotely is done on a case-by-case basis and is done on the merits of their work and their previous ability to get the work done remotely or off-site.

Re: No more remote work at Yahoo

#107

I didn't bother to read the original announcement but this line stands out for me: it is about the interactions and experiences that are only possible in our offices Seems to be a statement that good collaboration is only possible when employees occupy the same physical space. Yahoo has offices across the glove, don't they? Are they going to also ban teams/employees in different offices from working together?

Presumably the idea is that teams are collocated which is where most of the value of team bonding comes from.

Re: No more remote work at Yahoo

#108
post #53

37signals comes down against a decree of no more remote working. I am shocked (shocked that there is gambling going on in this establishment). Much like hiring practices this is and will continue to be a divisive issue. This one however seems to be largely driven by personal preference: if you want to work from home, you can't understand why anyone is against it. If you don't, then you do. I fall in the camp of not n…

>> Yahoo wants to build (or rebuild) an engineering culture. Then say that. Say it loud and proud. Say we want to build an engineering culture of excellence. Talk about how programmers will rule the roost once more. Talk about the open sourcing of the Yahoo libraries, how Yahoo will never let a piece of code go without review and tests. And then say "In my opinion as the CEO we can only do this by being in the office…

>This, this is just "I'm in charge, everyone in because I say so"

I doubt it's like this. From all the articles I have read, everyone seems to just be vilifying Mayer in standard linkbait form. Mayer could have said that ("In my opinion as the CEO we can only do this by being in the office at the same time, no flexi-hours, no mucking about, everyone in.") but it wouldn't matter because everyone would twist her words.

Even the whole issue is sort of overblown. AFAIK, Mayer has only said you can't always work at home. There is nothing she said about cutting flexi-hours, or working from sometimes.

Re: No more remote work at Yahoo

#109

TL;DR: Here's the thing: All engineering is "working remotely" because being "remote" is simply a matter of isolation. This is why even people in the same room use headphones, IM, etc. Everything that's not working remotely (eg: isolation) is "meetings" and the overhead of distractions. The only advantage of having engineers in the same office is a lower cost of meetings. The disadvantage is it makes engineering hard…

> Meyer doesn't respect or understand engineering culture

I think somebody doesn't understand where Mayer came from.

Re: No more remote work at Yahoo

#110
post #97
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, communication with other teams is harder, but that doesnt happen as often as internal team communication. The question was about scaling up. It's obviously possible to manage entire teams that are offsite, as many companies now do it. Is there some other way to scale up than to have other teams? You aren't seriously suggesting to have bigger teams, are you? If you accept you need teams in multiple teams & locat…

>> The question was about scaling up. Having multiple offices in different location isnt working remotely. The teams that work together still actually physically work together. All i am saying is, having for example a team of 15 engineers, marketing guys, sales guys who all work from home creates more communication overhead per person. Add to that totally flexible schedules where the people i need to talk to often ar…

All i am saying is, having for example a team of 15 engineers, marketing guys, sales guys who all work from home creates more communication overhead per person.

I'm not sure I agree with this. I was going to say that it could perhaps be true for sales/marketing (not my area), but I just realized that at my last on-site job the sales guys were actually the only ones remote. So my practical experience seems to point the exact opposite as your claim.

Add to that totally flexible schedules where the people i need to talk to often arent available

Don't confuse flexible schedules with working remotely, they really are entirely different things. I already pointed out how flexible schedules cause problems for on-site work in the parent posts.

Different time zones are even more of a pain for both local and remote, but I'd rather stay awake late at night for a meeting if I can do so at home.

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