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The MS Surface Pro

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Re: The MS Surface Pro

#81

Post by redact207 »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #20
redact207 wrote: post #7

I'm just impressed that someone's finally found a practical way to do work on a tablet.

2010 has called and wants their comment back. People have been doing work on tablets for awhile, have you been to a Starbucks in the states recently?

2009 called and they want their "wants their comment" comment back.

Seriously, there's doing "work" and doing work. I haven't been to Starbucks in the states, but I've been everywhere in Singapore and everytime I've seen people using tablets it's for entertainment, reading the news, or at the very most writing emails.

If your job is writing emails, I concede, you're doing work. But if you're anything except a coffee shop writer then I doubt it. I've desperately tried to justify a tablet for years now but I barely have the motivation to type a text message on a phone and delay most else until I have a physical keyboard and an OS that has a proper window manager.

Re: The MS Surface Pro

#82

Post by chx »

Sorry for the snark remark but -- if every single Cintiq 24HD owner buys an MS Surface Pro then MS will gain... a measurement error in the tablet market share.

Re: The MS Surface Pro

#83

Post by seanmcdirmid »

redact207 wrote: post #81
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2010 has called and wants their comment back. People have been doing work on tablets for awhile, have you been to a Starbucks in the states recently?

2009 called and they want their "wants their comment" comment back. Seriously, there's doing "work" and doing work. I haven't been to Starbucks in the states, but I've been everywhere in Singapore and everytime I've seen people using tablets it's for entertainment, reading the news, or at the very most writing emails. If your job is writing emails, I concede, you're doing work. But if you're anything except a coffee…

I observe the same thing happening in China (entertainment, no tablets used for work). I was talking about a trend in the states, we can only guess what it means for Asia.

Many of them are writing papers, doing homework, whatever. You'd be surprised how much work just involves writing something. They almost always have physical keyboards attached to the iPad when they are writing, if you don't look close enough, they look like mini laptops.

Re: The MS Surface Pro

#85

Post by josteink »

dhruvmittal wrote: post #24
10char wrote: post #3

I'm still a bit disappointed that Apple has yet to add a Wacom layer to their devices. It's so unquestionably better at doing writing, sketching, and note-taking than crudely smudging your fingers. iPads still fail pretty hard at being useful during math class. I had an old-style swivel tablet (Windows Vista?), and it was a fantastic device to take notes on, invaluable for classwork. OneNote + pen-input really seemed…

Apple's been incredibly anti-stylus in the past, if I recall correctly. Didn't Jobs say something along the lines of "if your tablet uses a stylus, you're doing it wrong" at the genesis of the iPad? Although we've seen that isn't necessarily the case, I can't see Apple eating their words in this case. Especially not with the success and visibility of Samsung's Note line.

While I agree with your comment in general, did you really need to make the launch of the iPad an event of religious proportions, as in "the genesis of the iPad"?

Sorry about the nitpick, but stuff like this gets on my nerve.

Re: The MS Surface Pro

#86

Post by supar »

Are there any digitizer users here?

I use a Wacom digitizer daily for notes and sketches instead of using pen&paper. My wet dream is a pressure&tilt sensitive/e-ink based device, but it looks like the Surface Pro is the closest you can get currently - and this is a good review.

If you want a portable device (laptop/ultrabook/tablet) with a good digitizer that you can actually use (that is, wacom based), your options are actually very few.

There is the Lifebook T902, or the ThinkPad X230T. Did I miss anything else? Both are convertible laptops, both are quite heavy, have medium to poor battery life if you extend them with the additional battery, and a lower-dpi screen. I would have expected higher-range graphics on those laptops, but the integrated HD 4000 is ridicolous when you think you basically get the same on an ultrabook.

Not to mention that the price range is simply off. The Surface Pro is way cheaper.

I used an earlier version of the Lifebook T902. It's actually better than having a separate digitizer which takes useless space on the desk, but it's still cumbersome. You cannot draw unless you flip the screen (odd position otherwise). It's really heavy. A clipboard with paper is an all-around better.

There are two segments of markets that are filled by this usage pattern: on-the-go artists, and cheap cintiq replacements. Drawing on a cintiq is just awesome, but wacom has basically a monopole and the prices are just unjustified. Even the Intuos line is, IMHO, overpriced at least by a 2x factor. The sad reality is that they have absolutely no real competition. I tried several NTrig-based digitizers (lately the Vaio Duo 11), and they just suck. The tracking is just worse, many jumps just over a few hours of testing, not to mention that the pressure sensitivity is lower too (when you're drawing strokes it's quite visible unless the software is not interpolating it for you).

Just look at the missed opportunities there are! The Taichi 21 and VAIO Duo 11 are cool, but they use N-Trig. The keyboard on the Lenovo Yoga is awesome, but no digitizer. The Dell XPS 12 looks stunning, but again missed opportunity. It was rumored to ship with a wacom layer, but it didn't finally.

The only downside of the Surface is the keyboard. I tried the flip keyboard of the Surface Rt and I only hope that the keyboard from the Pro is different, because it sucks. Missed keys, zero feedback. Admittedly, it's better than typing on an on-screen keyboard, but the Taichi 21 of the Dell XPS 12 approaches are way better.

As a sad note, the replaceable battery concept is gone on all these modes. You know, I would settle for lower battery life if I could just have 2, or 3. I was actually shocked that at least HP offers the EliteBook Folio 9470m which has a replaciable battery in a thin format (the ultrabook is awesome), so there are really no excuses for it.

Re: The MS Surface Pro

#87

Post by tripzilch »

phaus wrote: post #47
gfunk911 wrote: post #5

Interesting. We now have an actual niche/use case where the Surface Pro could be a compelling leader, and not just "totally decent." Artists. Also, doesn't an apple-style commercial where somebody gets an email with a word doc attached, edits it, and emails it back with changes while on the train or something seem obvious....

This use case has been around for at least several years, but it's a niche market. I'm not a professional, but to me drawing is what I consider a serious hobby, so a few years ago I bought an Asus EP121 Slate. Almost everyone likes to doodle from time to time, so I'm hoping that Microsoft's push for tablets with actual digitizers in them catches on. So far, the devices aren't exactly where I'd like them to be, but th…

> Drawing with a capacitive stylus is like cutting off the tips of your fingers and trying to type.

Never tried but I can totally imagine :) From my experiences with iPads, I'd compare it to fingerpainting, but I guess your description is more .. vivid :)

But I get from the article, and how the author seems pretty satisfied with it, that the Surface uses a different, better technology for t6hat?

Re: The MS Surface Pro

#88

Post by theguycalledtom »

JuDue wrote: post #69
joshschreuder wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It's like we said on the iPad, if you see a stylus, they blew it." http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/08/jobs-if-you-see-a-stylus-... See also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YY3MSaUqMg

Yes. And this refers to the interface. In the past there were touch interfaces that were fiddly and required a pen to interact. Jobs believed that was a poor interface. For example, the new Office 365 for Windows still has loads of awkwardly sized buttons and drop downs, making it difficult to use via touch. Some reviews have pondered how seriously MS is taking touch interfaces. But maybe this is why the Surface Pro…

Upvote for you sir! Exactly, you don't need a stylus to run the Win8 UI. A touch interface should be designed with a finger as the primary interface in ind, which was what Jobs was talking about.

A Pen is just an additional tool to make the tablet experience better in various use cases, just like a bluetooh keyboard.

Re: The MS Surface Pro

#89

Post by redact207 »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #83
redact207 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2009 called and they want their "wants their comment" comment back. Seriously, there's doing "work" and doing work. I haven't been to Starbucks in the states, but I've been everywhere in Singapore and everytime I've seen people using tablets it's for entertainment, reading the news, or at the very most writing emails. If your job is writing emails, I concede, you're doing work. But if you're anything except a coffee…

I observe the same thing happening in China (entertainment, no tablets used for work). I was talking about a trend in the states, we can only guess what it means for Asia. Many of them are writing papers, doing homework, whatever. You'd be surprised how much work just involves writing something. They almost always have physical keyboards attached to the iPad when they are writing, if you don't look close enough, they…

I spent a lot of time in China, but it was sadly before the tablet craze. I'd take a punt and say their cultural and business norms don't require so much writing and people would own it for the status - much like a designer handbag - and possibly QQ.

Ironically it's the tablets that's much more compatible with their traditional written language. Sure you have pinyin/wubi based IMEs, and touch devices have had hand writing recognition for a long time but it's never really caught on. It's depressing when you're struggling to learn the language and you see native Chinese pull out their phone when they don't remember how to write a character.

Re: The MS Surface Pro

#90

Post by astn »

supar wrote: post #86

Are there any digitizer users here? I use a Wacom digitizer daily for notes and sketches instead of using pen&paper. My wet dream is a pressure&tilt sensitive/e-ink based device, but it looks like the Surface Pro is the closest you can get currently - and this is a good review. If you want a portable device (laptop/ultrabook/tablet) with a good digitizer that you can actually use (that is, wacom based), your options…

Samsung Galaxy Note N8000 tablet uses wacom digitizer.
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