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Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

arstechnica.com

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Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#21

Post by stavros »

jere wrote: post #13
brianberns wrote: post #8

IMHO, NetHack is the king of clunky, quasi-graphical-but-really-text-based games. In many ways, it is probably the greatest computer game of all time. Is Dwarf Fortress in the same league?

If you think NetHack is the greatest computer game of all time, may I suggest Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup? Supposedly, it was modeled after NH, but in attempt to fix several of its problems: http://crawl.develz.org/other/manual.html#n-philosophy-pas-d...

I lost so much time to that game. I would probably recommend it.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#22

Post by spacemanaki » 

  > There are instructions within the game, and without in the form
  > of wikis and forums, but I wanted to begin at the most basic
  > level, if only to come at the game from a recently trendy (if
  > controversial) design paradigm on discoverability that's flowed
  > from mobile apps to many new indie games: "if you see a UI
  > walkthrough, they blew it".
Some of the author's other points are valid, and DF definitely has some (just some!?) problems with the UI (my personal nitpick is that there are multiple ways to draw rectangles) but I get the impression that she set things up planning to fail. Not R-ingTFM isn't really a reasonable way to review this game. DF doesn't have a team of people behind it, and there's no UX designer to figure out how to make things beautiful and intuitive. On the other hand, the game is free, and the developers have supposedly turned down at least one relatively large buyout offer in order to keep working on their dream on their own terms.

It's cliche, but you get out of DF what you put into it. If poring over fan-made wikis, taking notes of all your findings, winning tiny victories like successfully getting your first workshop running, and losing in spectacular fashion only to retell your loss to friends doesn't sound fun, maybe stick to Skyrim.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#23

Post by danso »

I'm really glad that this game came out after I was an adult with a full-time job. Otherwise, I would not have the excuse to not dive into it and inevitably be sucked in. As it is, I can walk away, justifying that I just don't have time to figure the game out. I liked DF when trying it out, but I think I enjoy just reading about it more.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#24

Post by the_french »

lost-theory wrote: post #15
warmwaffles wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My brother plays this constantly, any pointers where I can start playing?

Following the Captnduck tutorials [1] and using the Lazy Newb pack [2] got me pretty far. [1]: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHVZtRdtPdo [2]: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=59026.0

If you are on mac you can use MacNewbiw instead of the LNB: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=106790.0

Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#25

Post by oscilloscope »

gosu wrote: post #10

I actually got bored towards the end of my first game of DF because it was too easy. The interface adds a lot of illusory difficulty, but that's not an issue for people used to reading manuals. On the other hand, when you're not wrestling with the system, there's not much fair challenge. When your underground fortress is filled to the brim with traps and completely self sufficient, no one is ever going to touch you u…

The fact that DF makes you want to get away from your keyboard and use your imagination is perhaps its most incredible feature.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#26

Post by bloaf »

gosu wrote: post #10

I actually got bored towards the end of my first game of DF because it was too easy. The interface adds a lot of illusory difficulty, but that's not an issue for people used to reading manuals. On the other hand, when you're not wrestling with the system, there's not much fair challenge. When your underground fortress is filled to the brim with traps and completely self sufficient, no one is ever going to touch you u…

There are some broken aspects to the game: that cage traps can catch just about everything and that all walls are impenetrable to invaders are two of the most obvious. If you abuse these, it is not hard to make the game too easy.

You can always just embark in more challenging areas so that you don't have the luxury of preparing a nice impenetrable fort for your first wave of hostiles...

Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#27

Post by failrate »

jere wrote: post #13
brianberns wrote: post #8

IMHO, NetHack is the king of clunky, quasi-graphical-but-really-text-based games. In many ways, it is probably the greatest computer game of all time. Is Dwarf Fortress in the same league?

If you think NetHack is the greatest computer game of all time, may I suggest Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup? Supposedly, it was modeled after NH, but in attempt to fix several of its problems: http://crawl.develz.org/other/manual.html#n-philosophy-pas-d...

What I am graciously anticipating is the Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup analogue of Dwarf Fortress.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#28

Post by lotu »

gosu wrote: post #10

I actually got bored towards the end of my first game of DF because it was too easy. The interface adds a lot of illusory difficulty, but that's not an issue for people used to reading manuals. On the other hand, when you're not wrestling with the system, there's not much fair challenge. When your underground fortress is filled to the brim with traps and completely self sufficient, no one is ever going to touch you u…

I felt this too when I played. I felt that the primary challenge was the interface itself. It wasn't that the game made it hard for me to figure out what the right thing was. That game made it hard for me to figure out how to do what I wanted.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#29

Post by kzrdude »

warmwaffles wrote: post #7
DrStalker wrote: post #2

Dwarf fortress is difficult for two reasons 1: Unintuitive interface. It takes some time just to learn how to do basic things and find the information you need. 2: Complexity. Once you know every possible command you can give you need to figure out what to do. It's hard to get into but immensely rewarding and satisfying once you do, with some amazingly detailed epic stories coming to life.

My brother plays this constantly, any pointers where I can start playing?

ask your brother :-)

Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#30

Post by Evbn »

alex_c wrote: post #20
csense wrote: post #6

The author's problems all have solutions: You need to dig stairs to be able to go up and down levels. You need to dig an "up stair", and then a "down stair" below it. Or you can dig "up/down stairs" which combine both functions into the same square. The lack of stone is probably due to embarking in an area that has clay, soil, or sand layers on top. If you tunnel down a few levels, you should find stone. If you have…

The author's problems all have solutions Well, no, those are symptoms, not problems. The problem, as explained by the author, is the sheer improbability of discovering how to play Dwarf Fortress by trial and error. (I say that as a big fan of the game... I've put in a few dozen hours over the years, which I feel is just barely enough to put me at the high end of "beginner").

Is that a problem?

Chess is inscrutable via trial and error too.

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