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Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

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Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#11

Post by flatline »

brianberns wrote: post #8

IMHO, NetHack is the king of clunky, quasi-graphical-but-really-text-based games. In many ways, it is probably the greatest computer game of all time. Is Dwarf Fortress in the same league?

DF is like a simulated fantasy world that runs in real-time. It is a combination of strategy, sandbox, and roguelike. Similar at first appearance to other roguelikes, but a very different playing experience. I am a fairly avid NetHack player and I have spent a lot of time playing DF as well, so there is definitely a common appeal. They are both incredibly challenging, and just learning to play them makes you feel like you've accomplished something.

Edit: there is also an "adventurer" mode in DF, which is a straight-up roguelike, where you can go and, for example, explore old fortresses you built. It is fun, but last time I played, it was still very rough and most of the focus had gone into the fortress-building side of things. I know that Toady spent a lot of time building a more dynamic roguelike experience a year or so ago.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#12

Post by ineedtosleep »

DrStalker wrote: post #2

Dwarf fortress is difficult for two reasons 1: Unintuitive interface. It takes some time just to learn how to do basic things and find the information you need. 2: Complexity. Once you know every possible command you can give you need to figure out what to do. It's hard to get into but immensely rewarding and satisfying once you do, with some amazingly detailed epic stories coming to life.

It's hard to get into, but if you deal with vim/emacs/etc on a normal basis, the learning curve shouldn't be a big deal (unless you don't have time for it).

The game is just like vim/emacs in that you don't know what you don't know and you're likely going to learn piecemeal.

If you looked through a couple tutorials and said "Hey I think I get the hang of it now" and start cracking at your first mountain, you'll quickly realize that you have no idea how to craft, deal with rooms, plant stuff, etc.

As far as the graphical elements of the interface goes, there's a number of tilesets to use[1] which make the game exponentially more enjoyable.

Also, there's a fellow on YouTube by the name of captnduck[2] and, aside from the official wiki, he's probably been the most helpful source for me when it comes to DF. I suggest taking a look at a video or two from him if DF interests you.

[1] http://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/117975/dwarf-fortr...

[2] https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL06686270DA5FF439

Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#13

Post by jere »

brianberns wrote: post #8

IMHO, NetHack is the king of clunky, quasi-graphical-but-really-text-based games. In many ways, it is probably the greatest computer game of all time. Is Dwarf Fortress in the same league?

If you think NetHack is the greatest computer game of all time, may I suggest Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup? Supposedly, it was modeled after NH, but in attempt to fix several of its problems: http://crawl.develz.org/other/manual.html#n-philosophy-pas-d...

Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#14

Post by shazow »

brianberns wrote: post #8

IMHO, NetHack is the king of clunky, quasi-graphical-but-really-text-based games. In many ways, it is probably the greatest computer game of all time. Is Dwarf Fortress in the same league?

Dwarf Fortress is not in the same league as NetHack. Dwarf Fortress is possibly an order of magnitude of leagues above NetHack in complexity, depth, and replayability. While I've probably spent a comparable amount of time playing both games over the years so far (on the order of +80 hours), I expect to spend far more of my life playing Dwarf Fortress as it continues to mature.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#15

Post by lost-theory »

warmwaffles wrote: post #7
DrStalker wrote: post #2

Dwarf fortress is difficult for two reasons 1: Unintuitive interface. It takes some time just to learn how to do basic things and find the information you need. 2: Complexity. Once you know every possible command you can give you need to figure out what to do. It's hard to get into but immensely rewarding and satisfying once you do, with some amazingly detailed epic stories coming to life.

My brother plays this constantly, any pointers where I can start playing?

Following the Captnduck tutorials [1] and using the Lazy Newb pack [2] got me pretty far.

[1]: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHVZtRdtPdo [2]: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=59026.0

Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#16

Post by spacemanaki »

gosu wrote: post #10

I actually got bored towards the end of my first game of DF because it was too easy. The interface adds a lot of illusory difficulty, but that's not an issue for people used to reading manuals. On the other hand, when you're not wrestling with the system, there's not much fair challenge. When your underground fortress is filled to the brim with traps and completely self sufficient, no one is ever going to touch you u…

If it's too easy, dig deeper.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#17

Post by Calamitous »

warmwaffles wrote: post #7
DrStalker wrote: post #2

Dwarf fortress is difficult for two reasons 1: Unintuitive interface. It takes some time just to learn how to do basic things and find the information you need. 2: Complexity. Once you know every possible command you can give you need to figure out what to do. It's hard to get into but immensely rewarding and satisfying once you do, with some amazingly detailed epic stories coming to life.

My brother plays this constantly, any pointers where I can start playing?

O'Reilly has a book for this: "Getting Started with Dwarf Fortress"

http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920022565.do

Looks good so far, although I'm not more than a chapter into it yet.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#18

Post by jmillikin »

gosu wrote: post #10

I actually got bored towards the end of my first game of DF because it was too easy. The interface adds a lot of illusory difficulty, but that's not an issue for people used to reading manuals. On the other hand, when you're not wrestling with the system, there's not much fair challenge. When your underground fortress is filled to the brim with traps and completely self sufficient, no one is ever going to touch you u…

If you ever find your Dwarf Fortress game to be too boring, keep digging deeper. There are many sources of entertainment located far underground.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#19

Post by oscilloscope »

brianberns wrote: post #8

IMHO, NetHack is the king of clunky, quasi-graphical-but-really-text-based games. In many ways, it is probably the greatest computer game of all time. Is Dwarf Fortress in the same league?

I've only played NetHack a few dozen times, but it seems to me that Dwarf Fortress is an evolution of NetHack and far more complex.

There are many experiences I've had in Dwarf Fortress that were particularly vivid. A polar bear stalking my woodcutter, but evading my warrior across the arctic tundra. A master engraver carving the story of a dwarven child who went mad. Purple gas saturating the grave room and leaking into the halls when my dwarves were being massacred by kobolds. Good friends celebrating in the great room, drinking while admiring the mist (the fortress was built into the back of a waterfall, and mist makes dwarves happy). The clumsy blacksmith and shy carpenter who lived in their corner of the mine, happily married and rarely taking food with the other dwarves. The cats. The dragon.

"Short, sturdy creatures fond of drink and industry."

Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#20

Post by alex_c »

csense wrote: post #6

The author's problems all have solutions: You need to dig stairs to be able to go up and down levels. You need to dig an "up stair", and then a "down stair" below it. Or you can dig "up/down stairs" which combine both functions into the same square. The lack of stone is probably due to embarking in an area that has clay, soil, or sand layers on top. If you tunnel down a few levels, you should find stone. If you have…

The author's problems all have solutions

Well, no, those are symptoms, not problems. The problem, as explained by the author, is the sheer improbability of discovering how to play Dwarf Fortress by trial and error. (I say that as a big fan of the game... I've put in a few dozen hours over the years, which I feel is just barely enough to put me at the high end of "beginner").

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