Firefox Will Soon Block Third-Party Cookies • Hacker News Board

Re: Firefox Will Soon Block Third-Party Cookies

#91

Post by eksith » Sun, Feb 24, 2013, 2:37 AM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #56

ihsw wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's not opt-in and there's no way to opt-out.

It's more correct to say that the ways to opt out are esoteric. Something like RequestPolicy allows the user to opt out of everything.

  It's more correct to say that the ways to opt out are esoteric.

And it's also disingenuous. If the default is opt-in (and that's never OK, regardless of your rationalisations) and opt-out is hidden somewhere on the 8th subpage of a company you've never heard of or will likely never know about without view-source. I can count on one finger the number of times I've seen the source of a targetted ad... the middle one.

Self-governance does not work when the power of technology is asymmetric. Whether it's cookies, spam or nuclear weapons, deterrence is the only effective solution.

Re: Firefox Will Soon Block Third-Party Cookies

#92

Post by taf2 » Sun, Feb 24, 2013, 2:41 AM UTC

cremnob wrote: post #65

lubos wrote: post #33

I don't think third-party cookies are such a big deal. It won't stop retargeting (workarounds are possible) so what is it really solving?

What are some of the workarounds?

etags, png image, something about tcp stack tracking... there are work arounds and there will be more workarounds... blocking cookies is stupid... they are part of the web

Re: Firefox Will Soon Block Third-Party Cookies

#93

Post by ihsw » Sun, Feb 24, 2013, 2:43 AM UTC

melvinram wrote: post #49

ihsw wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would establish the web as a safe and secure platform, and I think that's in the best interest of the web. To hell with your personal ambition to underhandedly monetize other people's users. EDIT: I changed my statement from 'monetize your users' to specify 'other users' as that more accurately reflects the impact of Mozilla's change. Third-party cookies are used for tracking users that aren't yours.

With that statement, you're also saying "To hell with YouTube, Facebook, WordPress.com and every other site that wouldn't survive without money."

Youtube, Facebook, and Wordpress.com already have their own tracking systems so they won't be affected by this change at all.

Re: Firefox Will Soon Block Third-Party Cookies

#94

Post by ihsw » Sun, Feb 24, 2013, 2:44 AM UTC

amastilovic wrote: post #77

ryanhuff wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does blocking third party Javascript prevent the sites that you mention from monetizing?

It lowers their income by forcing them to succumb to non-targeted advertising which is less effective and brings less money. I'd love to see your ideas of a free and secure web without marketing money flowing into content provider websites.

They have enough varied content to effectively provide re-targeted ads.

Re: Firefox Will Soon Block Third-Party Cookies

#95

Post by taf2 » Sun, Feb 24, 2013, 2:44 AM UTC

this is short cited. we don't even know or can imagine the type of interesting applications we are eliminating by saying no to third party cookies. I remember building a reservation widget that loaded via an iframe on a third party domain. Perhaps we would want to maintain some of the reservation history on the users browser (e.g. third party cookie). I believe this would still work, but as we continue to focus only on the use case of advertising and blocking re-marketing ads... we should remember there are other legit use cases for third party cookies.

Re: Firefox Will Soon Block Third-Party Cookies

#96

Post by taf2 » Sun, Feb 24, 2013, 2:49 AM UTC

Amadou wrote: post #85

chewxy wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. In my experience it's not the ad companies that ask for them. It's usually the advertiser (i.e. the people advertising) that ask for them. Market forces (i.e. the demand) means that technologies will be made available to them if they're willing to pay high enough a sum. As for evercookies and TCP stack analysis, I'm pointing out that the technologies to do cookieless tracking is already being used. And I feel it'…

> No. In my experience it's not the ad companies that ask for them. It's usually the advertiser That is a distinction without a difference.

the difference is it's the website you're using and enjoying that is demanding this extra information. it's what they get in return for giving something to you for "free"...

Re: Firefox Will Soon Block Third-Party Cookies

#97

Post by indymike » Sun, Feb 24, 2013, 2:51 AM UTC

chewxy wrote: post #18

jacquesm wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I can't stand retargeting, if there is one turn-off I have when visiting websites it is being hounded from site to site by an ad. That signals to me to never ever buy that product. That it is 'exciting' to those in the advertising industry is a signal all by itself. Once a while ago I googled for a bit around the time I was buying a car. For weeks afterwards I got hounded by car ads for some brand. Needles…

There is a general rule of thumb that a person has to look at/interact with/be cognitively aware of an ad at least 7 times before any action can be taken. Showing ads across sites is just one more way to do that. In fact I would rather have relevant ads show up than irrelevant ads. I will admit that many companies out there do overdo their retargeting campaign though. That's what the company does that is mistaken, no…

New Relic, I'm looking at you. I don't think I've seen a banner for anything other than New Relic for a month and I have New Relic and use it every day.

Re: Firefox Will Soon Block Third-Party Cookies

#98

Post by majormajor » Sun, Feb 24, 2013, 2:51 AM UTC

melvinram wrote: post #46

alan_cx wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In short, yes. It never bothered me that TV didnt target me. Same on the web.

It may not bother you but it does bother most of America. They use DVRs and skips ads whenever possible.

DVR usage isn't actually that prevalent, even after a decade. Generally the preference is to watch stuff live, and live with the ads. Which is a big part of why the ground hasn't fallen out from under broadcasters like it did with newspapers, and TV ads are still the priciest (and arguably most effective, commanding your attention in a way that banner ads cannot) form of ads.

Re: Firefox Will Soon Block Third-Party Cookies

#99

Post by taf2 » Sun, Feb 24, 2013, 2:52 AM UTC

ricardobeat wrote: post #17

chewxy wrote: post #6

I don't really like this. I work in the advertising industry and retargeting is honestly one of the most exciting things to come out. Sure there are ways of cookieless retargeting, but it is a hassle. I mean, everyone's heard of Samy's Evercookie right? Then there are TCP stack signatures, and other companies like a few European DSPs that use cookieless tracking to track a person (IMO it's quite easy to use a GET pix…

> I do not consider retargeting to be evil. What a coincidence that you work in the field!

why do you consider it evil? it seems like a great way to reach back out to someone who was potentially interested in your service. if all retargeting is doing is showing you ads from a website you already visited. How is that evil? Are babies dead because of it? Or perhaps do you remember that you like that website and eventually signup because you got the extra reminder... that is just called advertising and it's what powers/pays for most of the free web... not a big deal really... the minority can and does block these ads big deal..

Re: Firefox Will Soon Block Third-Party Cookies

#100

Post by majormajor » Sun, Feb 24, 2013, 2:53 AM UTC

brugidou wrote: post #19

_delirium wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an internet user , retargeting is honestly one of my #1 targets. I find it super-creepy that some websites show me things based on other websites I visit, and I want a way to stop it.

why is that creepy? Both websites are related through a retargeter. One sends the data over to the other. It's just like they were the same websites or same corporation. If you don't like this then you can avoid theses websites that sell/buy your information. Although that's a good chunk of the Internet. Just make sure you send private information to trusted sites only.

One big creepy part is that people share computers. Used to be that someone could try to dig through your history if they wanted to (but most people didn't), but now some of your history gets pushed right to them.

I'm looking at you, Amazon banner ads that feature products I browsed recently. (This is lots of fun because I often use Amazon solely to get info on a product that I may have no intention at all of purchasing.)