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John Carmack: Latency Mitigation Strategies

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Re: John Carmack: Latency Mitigation Strategies

#61

Post by neverm0re »

modeless wrote: post #56
neverm0re wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I fail to see how "using your head as a dumb camera joystick" is a problem; that's the whole point of VR. Perhaps you should try playing some VR games for a while. I clocked quite a few hours playing the old Virtuality SU2000 games like Dactyl Nightmare and I've idly kept up with HMDs. The chief problem is that without eye tracking, it's incredibly UNFUN to use your head for movements that your eyes could otherwise…

it's incredibly UNFUN to use your head for movements that your eyes could otherwise have done for you. That's only a problem if your FOV is too small. With a large enough FOV and a light display there's no reason why eye and head movements shouldn't work exactly as they do in real life. The Oculus Rift has twice the angular field of view of the SU2000 in both dimensions, for 4x the subtended angular area. Edit: Oh I…

We seem to be so close to agreement here that I'll just have to vote you up and take you at your word regarding the Rift. It's entirely possible my experiences have all been unfortunate ones. I've not tried the Rift yet, though by all means I will. :)

Re: John Carmack: Latency Mitigation Strategies

#62

Post by trafficlight »

seanalltogether wrote: post #42
breckinloggins wrote: post #31

It sounds like we would benefit from GPU and display manufacturers providing a set of standard low-level control primitives so that people like Carmack who know what they are doing can really play around with the entire pipeline without having to worry about all the things the cards and the displays are doing behind their backs. For example, a GPU could have a set of standard settings with full buffering and all the…

Carmack has also mentioned in the past we could solve other buffer problem with non-isochronous displays, essentially a display that doesn't run on a fixed hz cycle but rather outputs lines to the screen as it comes down the pipeline at whatever framerate the host system can handle

Do such displays exist?

Re: John Carmack: Latency Mitigation Strategies

#63

Post by ChuckMcM »

modeless wrote: post #57
ChuckMcM wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think they were a missed opportunity. In order for them to 'miss' they had to be 'possible' which they haven't been for a long time. Its only lately where various things have come together to get close. I have followed the 'head mounted display' technology closely since its early inception in the mid-90's as a means of providing military pilots with situational awareness. The first problem with head mounted d…

$2K/unit? That's a gigantic overestimate. High quality head tracking is practically free today thanks to advances in cameras and MEMS sensors; you don't need laser gyros. The Oculus Rift costs $300, and is almost good enough for a home console. The only major improvement needed is a better display, which needn't cost more if sourced in quantities large enough, which Sony or Microsoft could definitely do. $500 for a c…

I love your optimism.

I too look forward to the OR system shipping. Go through the latest parts list for the OR device and check on availability 2 years ago. Things are moving along and that is great, they weren't there when Nintendo was using MEMS accelerometers and CMOS camera modules in their remote.

Re: John Carmack: Latency Mitigation Strategies

#64

Post by roc »

nitrogen wrote: post #50
roc wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given the PS4 is using an off-the-shelf x86 processor, how long do you think it'll be until other OEMs are pitching laptops with these same CPUs that have GDDR5 controllers for main memory? How long until Intel matches? How long until basically every CPU supports it and every manufacturer has one or more such systems?

They may be using an off-the-shelf x86 core , but their actual CPU die may have all kinds of customizations on it (like the addition of a GDDR5 memory controller). AIUI GDDR5 memory is much more expensive than DDR3. So it may happen eventually, but I don't think it will be any time soon, and believe me, I really want PCs to be better than consoles in every way.

It just seems to me that whatever they're doing with AMD, AMD is going to be able to farm out to other parties. Given that both MS and Sony are using AMD cores paired with GDDR5 memory controllers, it seems almost certain that there's nothing approaching an exclusivity contract to prevent AMD from now selling that bundle to any maker of gaming PCs or SteamBox builds or whatever else.

And the current/historical cost differential between DDR and GDDR5 certainly seemed to be a considerable problem back when these specs were first rumored. But the following things suggest that's not likely to be an issue preventing it from hitting other gaming PCs: 1. Sony managed to spec 8GB of it into a box they simply can't afford to subsidize greatly at the outset. [1] 2. Sony and MS both need to know the cost of any expensive components will drop massively over the next couple years. 3. PC gamers readily and regularly accept higher prices for their machines than console makers could ever stomach.

So I don't see it becoming common. Truly very few non-gamers would care about the performance delta. But it seems like a thing that will be on offer from multiple vendors, for feasible prices, before long. (Particularly given that AMD could really use any edge against Intel.)

[1] People wrote off a lot of the rumors on that basis alone. If Sony is confident that it can not only afford GDDR5 for system memory, but that it can afford so much, there has to be a massive price cut incoming.

Re: John Carmack: Latency Mitigation Strategies

#65

Post by breckinloggins »

rmc wrote: post #60
breckinloggins wrote: post #31

It sounds like we would benefit from GPU and display manufacturers providing a set of standard low-level control primitives so that people like Carmack who know what they are doing can really play around with the entire pipeline without having to worry about all the things the cards and the displays are doing behind their backs. For example, a GPU could have a set of standard settings with full buffering and all the…

One problem is that lots of people think they know what they are doing, but actually don't. You also have the problem of people choosing to use "expert mode" because it's faster, obviously .

That's why I think the default should always be "babysitter mode". Unless you give a specific set of commands, the GPU does what it does and the display does its thing.

Regarding people who turn on "expert mode" even when they don't know what they're doing, that doesn't seem to be a good reason for not having it. The Mark Twain quote about censorship being like "telling a grown man he can't have a steak because a baby can't chew it" comes to mind.

Re: John Carmack: Latency Mitigation Strategies

#66

Post by mheathr »

dman wrote: post #15
dchichkov wrote: post #12

> Conventional computer interfaces are generally not as latency demanding as virtual reality, but sensitive users can tell the difference in mouse response down to the same 20 milliseconds or so, making it worthwhile to apply these techniques even in applications without a VR focus. I wish people would start treating text editors that they are developing this way. As hard real time systems. Don't care much about virt…

Would you be willing to pay a recurring fee for using an editor? I have toyed with writing an editor at multiple points but have backed away because I think in the grand scheme of things its a one time sale to a pretty small market (The number of people who care enough about text editing that they would pay for a good editor when they see one)

Instead of starting from scratch perhaps implement utility in an existing editor that is in demand but not yet available for a fee.

There are a lot of things that would be nice to see in existing programs that a bounty type system would possibly work well to encourage.

Re: John Carmack: Latency Mitigation Strategies

#67

Post by dman »

oftenwrong wrote: post #34
dman wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you be willing to pay a recurring fee for using an editor? I have toyed with writing an editor at multiple points but have backed away because I think in the grand scheme of things its a one time sale to a pretty small market (The number of people who care enough about text editing that they would pay for a good editor when they see one)

I might be willing to pay. What would your editor offer that the free, powerful, well-established editors out there do not?

Since I havent implemented anything I cant make any claims, what I can answer is things that I miss in the current landscape:

a) Fast startup times

b) Effective utilization of multiple monitors out of the box

c) Embedded prompt for dynamic languages

d) Minimal lag in the UI

e) Fast regex search over multiple files

f) Multi file mode - I want to be able to have multiple files mapped to the same buffer and have the ability to quicky seek to files

g) Outline mode that is code aware

h) Integrated lint mode

i) All of the above in the same editor. Currently sublime comes the closest, I have also happily used emacs in the past but sublime feels snappier than emacs currently. I guess if emacs could be as snappy and pretty as sublime what it would scratch all my needs, because modulo some polish it has most of the other features.

Re: John Carmack: Latency Mitigation Strategies

#68

Post by dman »

mheathr wrote: post #66
dman wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you be willing to pay a recurring fee for using an editor? I have toyed with writing an editor at multiple points but have backed away because I think in the grand scheme of things its a one time sale to a pretty small market (The number of people who care enough about text editing that they would pay for a good editor when they see one)

Instead of starting from scratch perhaps implement utility in an existing editor that is in demand but not yet available for a fee. There are a lot of things that would be nice to see in existing programs that a bounty type system would possibly work well to encourage.

That is a good idea!

Re: John Carmack: Latency Mitigation Strategies

#69

Post by jiggy2011 »

dman wrote: post #15
dchichkov wrote: post #12

> Conventional computer interfaces are generally not as latency demanding as virtual reality, but sensitive users can tell the difference in mouse response down to the same 20 milliseconds or so, making it worthwhile to apply these techniques even in applications without a VR focus. I wish people would start treating text editors that they are developing this way. As hard real time systems. Don't care much about virt…

Would you be willing to pay a recurring fee for using an editor? I have toyed with writing an editor at multiple points but have backed away because I think in the grand scheme of things its a one time sale to a pretty small market (The number of people who care enough about text editing that they would pay for a good editor when they see one)

Doesn't seem to be too small a market for sublime or textmate.

What I would pay for would be an editor in the style of ST2 but with a few IDE features like being able to jump to method definitions by shift clicking etc.

Basically a very lightweight IDE with good text editing features (like VIM style keyboard shortcuts). Integrate a terminal into it, but do it in a very slick way with the ability to run "recipe" type commands.

For example if I forget the switches for a git command, I should be able to search for roughly what I want and have a result return which will populate a command in the terminal.

This might mean hyper focusing on a few languages however.

Not sure I would like the recurring model for just using the editor. Since this would likely mean you would have to implement some sort of always on cloud integration into the editor which would annoy me and make me worry about losing access to my editor.

What I might pay for on a recurring basis would be access to a repo of high quality plugins that were well integration with every version of the editor. Also maybe some functionality to allow me to share the editor session with someone remotely.

Re: John Carmack: Latency Mitigation Strategies

#70

Post by dman »

jiggy2011 wrote: post #69
dman wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you be willing to pay a recurring fee for using an editor? I have toyed with writing an editor at multiple points but have backed away because I think in the grand scheme of things its a one time sale to a pretty small market (The number of people who care enough about text editing that they would pay for a good editor when they see one)

Doesn't seem to be too small a market for sublime or textmate. What I would pay for would be an editor in the style of ST2 but with a few IDE features like being able to jump to method definitions by shift clicking etc. Basically a very lightweight IDE with good text editing features (like VIM style keyboard shortcuts). Integrate a terminal into it, but do it in a very slick way with the ability to run "recipe" type…

I dont want to gimp the user experience or implement cloud features just to get people to pay. At the same time if I am going to be spending 2-3 years to build something I would rather it be something that has a recurring income stream.
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