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A simple solution to credit card fraud, and why you won't see it any time soon

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Re: A simple solution to credit card fraud, and why you won't see it any time soon

#81

Post by pbreit »

mhp wrote: post #36
skore wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are being downvoted because it is generally understood that there are indeed rather serious consequences for victims of credit card fraud[1]. If you have a viewpoint that is polar opposite to how everybody else understands something, maybe it's your obligation to explain it better. And saying that you're in some form of authority to speak about the subject isn't an explanation. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cr…

Updated: Apologies, I see now that the original comment specifically states there are no victims, period... even merchant victims. Incorrect. There are no serious consequences for the victims of credit card fraud (unless you consider the victims to be the merchants). When fraud takes place, the credit card company removes the bill from your statement. Then they take the money back that they sent to the merchant. The…

That's if the cardholder discovers the charge and if it hasn't already caused any problems (such as leading to bounced checks or inability to make an important payment). Your language is much to strong, especially since is wrong.

Re: A simple solution to credit card fraud, and why you won't see it any time soon

#82

Post by pbreit »

kjackson2012 wrote: post #56

In Canada they have a system where you input a PIN number every time you use a credit card at a POS. I've heard from my Canadian friend who owns a Shoppers Drug Mart, that it has cut down chargebacks to almost 0. Why they haven't implemented this in the US I'm not sure. The only problem is that if they figure out your PIN, it makes it very hard to fight chargebacks from the point of the consumer. But we all know that…

It's expensive, a bad user experience and there's already very little chargeback risk in card-present txns.

Re: A simple solution to credit card fraud, and why you won't see it any time soon

#83

Post by pbreit »

zanny wrote: post #23
pbreit wrote: post #6

So...what's the solution?? "Use public key encryption" doesn't help us much. Especially when you claim "it's not hard". Disposable numbers have been tried many, many times and the user experience stinks. Maybe with the prevalence of good mobile experiences, their time has come?

I think the other thing is that most online credit fraud doesn't come intercepting credentials over wires but by dupe sites that imitate real realtors. I think two factor authentication might help with that, if it has to verify both sender and recipient on some mutual third party server of the credit card provider, but that costs them money, which gets back to the root problem, it doesn't cost the companies that woul…

I think there is zero chance Bitcoin takes off.

Re: A simple solution to credit card fraud, and why you won't see it any time soon

#84

Post by saraid216 »

lisper wrote: post #62
drucken wrote: post #48

Overreacting, shallow, misleading and bait-link article. Overreacting: - the most up-to-date technologies for anti-credit card fraud, namely variants of smart card/EMV, are already available and widely used by all the large credit card providers and banks in the EU and Asia (excluding domestic transactions in China and Japan). There are even US providers who use it in some situations. - in addition, most merchants in…

Cut me a little slack, OK? This is just the beginning of a long story.

If it's not ready to be read, why was it posted?

Re: A simple solution to credit card fraud, and why you won't see it any time soon

#85

Post by seagreen »

jarrett wrote: post #78
bradleyland wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> possession of credit card data amounts to permission to charge any arbitrary amount to it The word you're looking for is "capability", not permission. Permission requires consent, which is something you give separately from the actual card number. A minor point, but I think it changes the tone of that statement. > possession of credit card data amounts to the capability to charge any arbitrary amount to it I'm not…

Yes, capability is a fine word for this. I'd say the practical consequences are still exactly the same, regardless of the label. Ugh, no thanks. The system you describe is more like cash. I have to actively dole out the necessary amount, and then receive change that is counted at each transition. I abhor these types of transactions. Not as I imagine it. I think the merchant would be able to set up a transaction, and…

Heck, why not let users create a whitelist of trusted businesses? Best of both worlds.

Re: A simple solution to credit card fraud, and why you won't see it any time soon

#86

Post by davidu »

dangrossman wrote: post #41
mhp wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Updated: Apologies, I see now that the original comment specifically states there are no victims, period... even merchant victims. Incorrect. There are no serious consequences for the victims of credit card fraud (unless you consider the victims to be the merchants). When fraud takes place, the credit card company removes the bill from your statement. Then they take the money back that they sent to the merchant. The…

He was very explicit in saying, multiple times, that his assertion was true for any definition of victim. It's easy to show that the victim of credit card fraud is typically the merchant, not the consumer.

I used the term consequences deliberately. The merchant may have losses, but they have no leverage. The option to not take credit cards is not available to most sellers of goods. On a large scale the cost of fraud simply becomes a cost of business that factors into the price the consumer pays. This is why many merchants offer a cash discount. To argue that the cash discount is just to cover credit card processing fees misses the point.

Re: A simple solution to credit card fraud, and why you won't see it any time soon

#87

Post by mikeash »

lisper wrote: post #62
drucken wrote: post #48

Overreacting, shallow, misleading and bait-link article. Overreacting: - the most up-to-date technologies for anti-credit card fraud, namely variants of smart card/EMV, are already available and widely used by all the large credit card providers and banks in the EU and Asia (excluding domestic transactions in China and Japan). There are even US providers who use it in some situations. - in addition, most merchants in…

Cut me a little slack, OK? This is just the beginning of a long story.

Why...? If he's wrong, surely you can rebut him, and if he's right, then how does being part of a long story change that?

Re: A simple solution to credit card fraud, and why you won't see it any time soon

#88

Post by mikeash »

qeorge wrote: post #25

Some banks will let you generate single-use credit card numbers (e.g., Chase). So you have one CC # for the power company, a different one for Netflix, and so forth. Then if e.g., Netflix gets hacked you can just cancel that one card number. You can also generate cards with hard spending limits, cards that only work for a specific merchant, etc. And of course you can delete them anytime. Its a pretty good system. Tha…

I had one of these for a while. I used them any time I bought from an online merchant I wasn't completely confident of. It let me put a specific purchase limit on each number, so I knew I couldn't be overcharged.

Then one day one of those slimy Brooklyn camera stores overcharged me by $10, even though I specifically put in a limit equal to the purchase price. I called the bank and asked what happened, and they said that they always add a pad on top of the limit because people often forget about shipping charges, etc.

Sigh.

Re: A simple solution to credit card fraud, and why you won't see it any time soon

#89

Post by lisper »

mikeash wrote: post #87
lisper wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cut me a little slack, OK? This is just the beginning of a long story.

Why...? If he's wrong, surely you can rebut him, and if he's right, then how does being part of a long story change that?

I can and I will but right now I'm on an airplane

Re: A simple solution to credit card fraud, and why you won't see it any time soon

#90

Post by davidu »

damoncali wrote: post #55
davidu wrote: post #22

I've thought about this "problem" and decided there's no problem. You're solving a non-problem if you try to solve credit card fraud. The reason we don't deal with credit card fraud is that there are no consequences for being a victim, for any definition of victim. If the victims had consequences, then there would be demand for action. But there is none. Further, because there are no consequences, the cost to solve c…

This is so obviously untrue that I'm really curious for further explanation. What are you talking about?

You say it's obviously untrue, so what are the obvious consequences of credit card fraud?

I believe that anything you suggest worth addressing costs more than the fraud itself. The only way to eliminate fraud is to show that doing so increases transaction volume. Since there has yet to be a proposed solution that does that, people focus instead on trying to "save money" lost to fraud, which doesn't work because there are no consequences to credit card fraud. (this is not a circular argument, though I see how it might read that way)

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