Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Specifically, they could source a higher-res, higher frame rate, lighter, lower-latency OLED display None of those are actually remotely as important as the fact you're still using your head as a dumb camera joystick, there's no ability to track eye movement and the mismatch between what you're seeing and your inner-ear pressure is going to make a number of people throw up.[1] These are fundamental problems that ha…
> mismatch between what you're seeing and your inner-ear pressure How does your inner-ear pressure change such that it cannot be fixed with better display and rendering?
John Carmack: Latency Mitigation Strategies
21–30 of 106 posts
Re: John Carmack: Latency Mitigation Strategies
#22I think head-mounted-display virtual reality is a huge missed opportunity for next-gen consoles. They could have really done it right in a way that PCs can't yet, with special hardware support for low latency and stereo rendering, and a guaranteed large audience so game studios could justify applying their full budgets to AAA VR titles. It would be a huge differentiator at a time when consoles seem to be converging t…
I think VR is fundamentally broken, because you're going to try to react to things in a way that doesn't work. With a head-mounted display, the game can react as you move your head. Great. But then you'll instinctively try to walk towards something and it won't work (or you'll hit the wall). Same with picking things up, etc. It seems like it's deep in the uncanny valley of experience.
Re: John Carmack: Latency Mitigation Strategies
#23Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think VR is fundamentally broken, because you're going to try to react to things in a way that doesn't work. With a head-mounted display, the game can react as you move your head. Great. But then you'll instinctively try to walk towards something and it won't work (or you'll hit the wall). Same with picking things up, etc. It seems like it's deep in the uncanny valley of experience.
I think it's just a matter of time before the other pieces to the VR puzzle catch up. Omni-directional treadmills are already in existence and are a basic step towards allowing you to walk in a VR environment. Developments in prosthetics with 'feeling' could help pave way towards shoes, gloves or other garments that could provide you with the sensory experiences of walking on different surfaces or picking up in-game…
I'm just not sure the average consumer is in any way ready/willing for that.
Re: John Carmack: Latency Mitigation Strategies
#24> Conventional computer interfaces are generally not as latency demanding as virtual reality, but sensitive users can tell the difference in mouse response down to the same 20 milliseconds or so, making it worthwhile to apply these techniques even in applications without a VR focus. I wish people would start treating text editors that they are developing this way. As hard real time systems. Don't care much about virt…
Re: John Carmack: Latency Mitigation Strategies
#25Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well Oculus Rift should support everything from PC's to consoles. But I agree. Stuff like Oculus Rift is the true next-gen computing. The PS4 and next Xbox leave me pretty cold, especially when I already have a laptop that can already play all the latest games.
I think the PS4's insane memory bandwidth (8GB of memory on a 170GB/sec GDDR5 bus) makes it a very interesting contender against PCs (dual-channel DDR3 maxes out at 34GB/s).
How long until Intel matches? How long until basically every CPU supports it and every manufacturer has one or more such systems?
Re: John Carmack: Latency Mitigation Strategies
#26> Conventional computer interfaces are generally not as latency demanding as virtual reality, but sensitive users can tell the difference in mouse response down to the same 20 milliseconds or so, making it worthwhile to apply these techniques even in applications without a VR focus. I wish people would start treating text editors that they are developing this way. As hard real time systems. Don't care much about virt…
Re: John Carmack: Latency Mitigation Strategies
#27I think head-mounted-display virtual reality is a huge missed opportunity for next-gen consoles. They could have really done it right in a way that PCs can't yet, with special hardware support for low latency and stereo rendering, and a guaranteed large audience so game studios could justify applying their full budgets to AAA VR titles. It would be a huge differentiator at a time when consoles seem to be converging t…
The first problem with head mounted displays was resolution. Both in color space and in pixel space. Early displays were monochrome (either green or red based on LED display drivers) and had a roughly 256 x 256 dot pitch. It was ok for targeting reticules and basic instrumentation display (like an artificial horizon). Early work also wanted transparency (look through) displays because there wasn't a way to display what you were looking at in enough fidelity to do both the visual field and the indicator field.
Later a company called Colorado Micro Displays (CMD) came to market and started offering color, but 320 x 200 was the best resolution they could do. Higher resolution displays cost tens of thousands of dollars and were essentially hand crafted out of unobtainum. Direct retinal illumination displays attempted to get past strict display resolution issues (a friend of mine worked on one of the x-y positioning device for doing this, it had 500 angstrom repeatability! And was, as expected, insanely expensive)
It really hasn't been until recently when DLP type systems at sufficient resolution to eliminate the x-y type beam director have come to market. Combined with better LED phosphors to bring the cost of an RGB display with better than VGA (640 x 480) resolution into something practical.
The incessant push to higher resolution phone screens has created the capability to make opaque but high resolution screens which can enable something like the Oculus Rift type displays. That requirement stems from how far away from the eyes you have to put the screen and thus the torque moment that is applied to your head. There was a great system at NASA which used 10" displays but the 'head mounted' part was more like sticking your head into some weird steadycam kind of device.
Finally there is the challenge of both high fidelity and high frequency head orientation technologies. Prior to about 2005 the best you could do was a laser gyro for motion and an accelerometer for inertial reference. Doing that at the necessary frequency (typically 1000 updates per second) didn't become cost effective until about 2009.
Now however, many of the technologies have finally matured to the point where OR can be done in small quantities for perhaps $2K/unit.
A 'game console' is struggles if it costs more then $300. So as a 'controller' option, and even as the 'whole console' option, these sorts of glasses are still about 3 - 5 years from hitting a price point that makes them the 'killer' peripheral. And of course because they aren't here yet, they can't really have 'missed' :-)
Re: John Carmack: Latency Mitigation Strategies
#28I think head-mounted-display virtual reality is a huge missed opportunity for next-gen consoles. They could have really done it right in a way that PCs can't yet, with special hardware support for low latency and stereo rendering, and a guaranteed large audience so game studios could justify applying their full budgets to AAA VR titles. It would be a huge differentiator at a time when consoles seem to be converging t…
I think VR is fundamentally broken, because you're going to try to react to things in a way that doesn't work. With a head-mounted display, the game can react as you move your head. Great. But then you'll instinctively try to walk towards something and it won't work (or you'll hit the wall). Same with picking things up, etc. It seems like it's deep in the uncanny valley of experience.
Re: John Carmack: Latency Mitigation Strategies
#29> Conventional computer interfaces are generally not as latency demanding as virtual reality, but sensitive users can tell the difference in mouse response down to the same 20 milliseconds or so, making it worthwhile to apply these techniques even in applications without a VR focus. I wish people would start treating text editors that they are developing this way. As hard real time systems. Don't care much about virt…
Have you tried Sublime Text? Predictable low latency is one of the reasons I like it.
Re: John Carmack: Latency Mitigation Strategies
#30Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Specifically, they could source a higher-res, higher frame rate, lighter, lower-latency OLED display None of those are actually remotely as important as the fact you're still using your head as a dumb camera joystick, there's no ability to track eye movement and the mismatch between what you're seeing and your inner-ear pressure is going to make a number of people throw up.[1] These are fundamental problems that ha…
Eye tracking would be awesome but it's not required for good VR. I fail to see how "using your head as a dumb camera joystick" is a problem; that's the whole point of VR. Motion sickness is a real problem for some people (but not all). With low latency and thoughtful game design I think it can be mitigated. The bigger problem is the social acceptability of blocking your entire field of vision for long periods of time…
Perhaps you should try playing some VR games for a while. I clocked quite a few hours playing the old Virtuality SU2000 games like Dactyl Nightmare and I've idly kept up with HMDs. The chief problem is that without eye tracking, it's incredibly UNFUN to use your head for movements that your eyes could otherwise have done for you. Mind you when the HMDs were much heavier back then it sucked a lot more, but it's still pretty shitty not being able to glance aside. Nope, gotta move your entire head for absolutely everything related to what you're currently seeing, if you move your head for any reason you can't maintain focus on objects naturally, etc.
> Motion sickness is a real problem for some people (but not all).
Probably not something you should underestimate. See Nintendo's 3DS launch and about-face on their stance on pushing 3D once they found a small but significant percentage of their users could not actually see the 3D effect. This lead to policy that the 3D effect could not be used for anything related to actual gameplay mechanics, reducing it entirely to an optional gimmick.
Simulation sickness affects even more people than the 3D issue. It's a real problem if you want to go mainstream.
Just to clarify my position, I'm not against the Rift nor do I have anything against HMDs. I simply see the Rift as a step along the way to whatever device truly popularizes the tech. I don't think we're there yet.