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The Department of Homeland Security Stole My Boat Today

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Re: The Department of Homeland Security Stole My Boat Today

#101

Post by __david__ »

OGinparadise wrote: post #71
jimrandomh wrote: post #15

If you refuse to sign a form because it has an error on it, it's your problem. If that form is what enables you to take custody of a boat, then you don't get to take custody of the boat. On the other hand, if the form that you signed has handwritten errata on it near the signature, and you weren't sneaky about it, then it's the bureacrats' problem instead of yours.

and you weren't sneaky about it, then it's the bureacrats' problem instead of yours. Actually it's your problem. They took his boat, ruined his week and it might cost him tens of thousands in lawyer fees. Other can miss flights to important meeting, bury their mom etc etc. Either way, you lose. Do you think the agent will be punished? I doubt it, blue wall of silence, union protection and all.

I think you misunderstand. He's saying this could have possibly been avoided by manually crossing out amount and correcting it, initialing it and then signing the page. Now you haven't lied and the it's up to someone else to fix it officially.

Re: The Department of Homeland Security Stole My Boat Today

#103

Post by vacri »

justin66 wrote: post #39
sivers wrote: post #11

A guy I know was in a similar situation when trying to enter Australia. 20+ years ago, when he was 18, he was arrested for the afternoon because of a student protest. So now on the visa forms, when entering Australia on vacation, he was asked if he had ever been arrested. He checked yes. The border control people in Australia denied him entry, and put him on the next plane back home. When he told the border guy the f…

This highlights a problem which isn't unique to Australia. For example, if a potential employer (or whoever) asks you if you've ever been arrested and your record has been expunged or you've been pardoned, you are expected to lie and say "no". That is how the system works. It sucks, but learning how to deal with these sorts of things is part of the price one has to pay when they have a run-in with the law. I'm not su…

If the employer wants that information, they can stump for a police background check. My private life is my private life, and there's no way that a checkbox on a form photocopied by the hundreds is going to give a balanced view of any arrest of mine.

I have never been arrested, but if the employer actually needs that level of employee security - perhaps handling client money? - then it's the employer's duty to protect themselves with more than a volunteered checkbox.

Re: The Department of Homeland Security Stole My Boat Today

#104

Post by aeturnum »

eqreqeq wrote: post #19
javajosh wrote: post #10

Ah, procedure. I'm particularly fond of situations like this where the procedure is, for the normal person, a once-in-a-lifetime event. But the flunky on the other side of the desk does it every day. And they think you are yet another stupid person who doesn't understand the simple procedure, and they have nothing but contempt for those who don't understand the procedure as deeply as they do (especially which parts o…

>> The other solution is to be really, really nice. To be incredibly accommodating. To engender a spirit of goodwill, joviality and kindness such that the flunky wants to help you. That is not a practical solution. It sounds almost like a bribe. I'm not saying that you should be rude to anybody, but you shouldn't have to kiss somebody's ass just so that they do their jobs. Is a slippery slope. Now you are kissing the…

>you shouldn't have to kiss somebody's ass just so that they do their jobs.

You don't. The person in this story did her job. He wouldn't sign the papers so she seized the boat. She also doesn't have the authority to change the papers. Her job is, if something goes sideways, impound everything and let the other parties sort it out.

The author of the article wanted a small and very reasonable exception made for his case. Everyone would agree that the change from CAD to USD is small and inconsequential and in this case more accurate. But that's not how "the system" works, and so he's not asking them to do their job.

If you just want the public official you're dealing with to do their job, then all you have to do is refrain from being difficult. If you want small special favors, then be nice. It's that easy.

Re: The Department of Homeland Security Stole My Boat Today

#105

Post by snowwrestler »

jlgreco wrote: post #86
snowwrestler wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it mistaken to expect to be treated nicely? When did it become ok to be an asshole to fellow citizens? When I go to the convenience store to buy a donut, I am nice to the clerk behind the counter. When I go through customs, I am nice to the agent behind the counter. How are those mistakes?

Expecting that is absolutely fine. Feeling entitled to that is not. You don't get to fuck over other people's days when they fail to extend you a courtesy. Well I mean, clearly they do get to do that, but that is a problem, not excusable behavior. I treat clerks nicely because I am a decent person. I treat government officials in positions of power over me nicely because, aside from being a decent person, I understan…

You think you understand the score, but to me it seems more like a persecution complex.

The irony is that in Arrington's situation the border agent tried to educate Mike that this was a rule that could be safely bent in the interest of expedience, but it was Mike himself who insisted on perfect procedure.

Re: The Department of Homeland Security Stole My Boat Today

#106

Post by ahlatimer »

javajosh wrote: post #10

Ah, procedure. I'm particularly fond of situations like this where the procedure is, for the normal person, a once-in-a-lifetime event. But the flunky on the other side of the desk does it every day. And they think you are yet another stupid person who doesn't understand the simple procedure, and they have nothing but contempt for those who don't understand the procedure as deeply as they do (especially which parts o…

especially in this case involving a young rich kid with an expensive toy

I realize it was an aside and doesn't take away from the point you were making, but the person who wrote this is Michael Arrington, who, according to wikipedia, is 42. Not really old, but not exactly a 'young rich kid', either.

Re: The Department of Homeland Security Stole My Boat Today

#107

Post by vacri »

jimrandomh wrote: post #15

If you refuse to sign a form because it has an error on it, it's your problem. If that form is what enables you to take custody of a boat, then you don't get to take custody of the boat. On the other hand, if the form that you signed has handwritten errata on it near the signature, and you weren't sneaky about it, then it's the bureacrats' problem instead of yours.

I'm not sure why he didn't just amend the form himself and initial the change. If the customs official didn't like that, well, he ends up in the same place as 'not signing'. If the customs official didn't care, he gets what he wants.

Re: The Department of Homeland Security Stole My Boat Today

#108

Post by vacri »

__david__ wrote: post #101
OGinparadise wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and you weren't sneaky about it, then it's the bureacrats' problem instead of yours. Actually it's your problem. They took his boat, ruined his week and it might cost him tens of thousands in lawyer fees. Other can miss flights to important meeting, bury their mom etc etc. Either way, you lose. Do you think the agent will be punished? I doubt it, blue wall of silence, union protection and all.

I think you misunderstand. He's saying this could have possibly been avoided by manually crossing out amount and correcting it, initialing it and then signing the page. Now you haven't lied and the it's up to someone else to fix it officially.

He should have just amended it himself - "it's easier to get forgiveness than permission"

Re: The Department of Homeland Security Stole My Boat Today

#109

Post by vacri »

Strang wrote: post #56
GiraffeNecktie wrote: post #38

No, DHS did not "steal" your boat. They confiscated it and you'll get it back by following some lengthy and convoluted appeal process. But I seriously don't understand Customs and Border Patrol (CBP) and why they have to be such utter dickheads on the Canadian border. Their Canadian counterparts (CBSA) are just as effective and efficient and somehow manage to be generally sane and rational.

They absolutely did "steal" his boat, for some definition of the word "steal." The DHS agent will not be charged with theft or larceny. But he was in lawful possession of a boat, someone with a gun ordered him off the boat, and he is no longer in possession of a boat.

I don't think his lawful possession of the boat starts until that form was properly signed. Moral possession, sure.

Re: The Department of Homeland Security Stole My Boat Today

#110

Post by oasisbob »

Something vaguely similar happened to me once while registering a new scooter. Because it was shipped to me directly, it had less than a mile on the odometer. (Less than half a km even, if memory serves.)

Under penalty of perjury, I had to declare the odometer to the nearest mile, but the system wouldn't accept zero for the mileage.

After 40 minutes of trying to sort it out with a supervisor, I muttered something about forgetting the km-to-miles conversion, amended the mileage to one, and was on my way.

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