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The Department of Homeland Security Stole My Boat Today

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Re: The Department of Homeland Security Stole My Boat Today

#71

Post by OGinparadise »

jimrandomh wrote: post #15

If you refuse to sign a form because it has an error on it, it's your problem. If that form is what enables you to take custody of a boat, then you don't get to take custody of the boat. On the other hand, if the form that you signed has handwritten errata on it near the signature, and you weren't sneaky about it, then it's the bureacrats' problem instead of yours.

and you weren't sneaky about it, then it's the bureacrats' problem instead of yours.

Actually it's your problem. They took his boat, ruined his week and it might cost him tens of thousands in lawyer fees. Other can miss flights to important meeting, bury their mom etc etc. Either way, you lose.

Do you think the agent will be punished? I doubt it, blue wall of silence, union protection and all.

Re: The Department of Homeland Security Stole My Boat Today

#73

Post by rayiner »

homosaur wrote: post #8
tptacek wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't make too much sense. DHS isn't one thing; it's many things glommed into one, including INS, CBP, FPS, TSA, APHIS, FEMA, the strategic medical stockpile, the Coast Guard, and the Secret Service, among others. I don't like the TSA any more than you do, but can we hold on to the Coast Guard?

The Coast Guard was placed there for financial gerrymandering. The idea that they are part of DHS is a horrible joke. Same with most of what you mentioned. Bush/Obama has shoved everything in there to create a psuedo military branch so it can't be declined in the future. Disgusting actions, honestly.

Bush/Obama shoved everything in there because people it was a national outrage after 9/11 that we had different departments for these things. We got what we goddamned asked for. It's not Bush's fault, or Obama's fault, but your fault and my fault.

Re: The Department of Homeland Security Stole My Boat Today

#74

Post by jlgreco »

snowwrestler wrote: post #69
javajosh wrote: post #10

Ah, procedure. I'm particularly fond of situations like this where the procedure is, for the normal person, a once-in-a-lifetime event. But the flunky on the other side of the desk does it every day. And they think you are yet another stupid person who doesn't understand the simple procedure, and they have nothing but contempt for those who don't understand the procedure as deeply as they do (especially which parts o…

> Nestled deep within this fucked up situation is an asymmetry of information that gives the flunky incredible power over someone who is, in almost every other context, perceived to be better than they are (especially in this case involving a young rich kid with an expensive toy). Most human beings, when confronted with such an imbalance of power, are not going to be able to resist abusing their power. This is self-c…

> Yes, yes, isn't so unreasonable the way those "flunkies" expect to be treated like worthwhile human beings?

It is unreasonable for them to use their power to coerce the sort of treatment from people that they mistakenly believe they are entitled to.

This is the case whether you consider them flunkies or community heroes.

Re: The Department of Homeland Security Stole My Boat Today

#76

Post by snprbob86 »

javajosh wrote: post #10

Ah, procedure. I'm particularly fond of situations like this where the procedure is, for the normal person, a once-in-a-lifetime event. But the flunky on the other side of the desk does it every day. And they think you are yet another stupid person who doesn't understand the simple procedure, and they have nothing but contempt for those who don't understand the procedure as deeply as they do (especially which parts o…

> [T]he procedure is, for the normal person, a once-in-a-lifetime event. But the flunky on the other side of the desk does it every day.

I just had a TV delivered. And then a replacement delivered, but they were unauthorized to pick up the original, so the same two delivery guys had to come back a third time.

All three times, the delivery guys tried to force me to sign an incomplete form. They clearly wanted me to sign for whatever condition it was in and they would check all the boxes on my behalf to cover their own asses. The tactic was plainly obvious.

> The other solution is to be really, really nice. To be incredibly accommodating.

That's what I usually try to do in this sort of situation. However, it simply was impossible because the delivery guys 1) were rather large and intimidating 2) in my home, where I'm still unpacking and 3) spoke very poor english. Charm simply does not work on underpaid meatheads who don't understand the words your using. Any attempt to communicate clearly resulted in them becoming impatient and visibly annoyed, which resulted in me becoming uncomfortable (in my own home!). So each of the first two times, I just didn't sign my name. I just made an X that is in no way similar to my normal signature. The last time, for the pickup, I wrote "PERFECT CONDITION" over the whole form and then signed my name to that. The delivery guys were clearly pissed that last time because they didn't have another form and that if they dropped the TV, then they couldn't blame damage on me.

Re: The Department of Homeland Security Stole My Boat Today

#77

Post by rayiner »

3327 wrote: post #18
homosaur wrote: post #3

DHS honestly makes me embarrassed to be an American. We could kill the whole thing tomorrow and it would make zero difference to public safety.

This is outrageous. Its police state behavior. "Confiscating" property should require documented probably cause and something like a warrant. What if the boat was your house? What if you were living in it with a family which my parents do? What then? One agent has the power and authority to do that? Ever read the comic strip or seen the movie Judge Dread?

Confiscating boats has never required the same procedures as confiscating real property. It's a distinction literally older than the republic.

Re: The Department of Homeland Security Stole My Boat Today

#78

Post by marknutter »

The biggest, and in my opinion, terrifying problem with bureaucracies is the lack of humanity; when humans stop treating each other like humans and use common sense, yet I feel like both parties in this story lacked humanity. Yes, the DHS employee went ahead and followed procedure even though it was going to seriously inconvenience Arrington, and that sucks. But Arrington's pedantry also inconvenienced the employee since it no doubt would have let to a long string of seldom used contingencies, much like making a fast food employee make you a special request. There was a moment where both parties could have just looked at the system for what it was - imperfect and inhuman - and knowingly nodded in agreement at the path of least resistance; in this case, the path of least resistance was Arrington signing the damn form and getting on with his day.

Sure, technically he saw the error and his signing the form would mean he was somehow not acknowledging it. But what are the consequences really going to be? I mean, what are the chances some other bureaucrat up the chain o' command would notice the mistake and contact Arrington on trumped up charges of lying on a routine customs form. Slim to nil. But it's the "principle" Arrington is worried about in this case. Well, there's principled, and there's downright ridiculous. I doubt Arrington reads every TOS on every website he's ever signed up for, and I doubt very much he would truly lose sleep at night knowing he signed that form.

Arrington tried to out bureaucrat a bureaucrat and go burned. Lessoned learned, I suppose.

Re: The Department of Homeland Security Stole My Boat Today

#79

Post by snowwrestler »

jlgreco wrote: post #74
snowwrestler wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nestled deep within this fucked up situation is an asymmetry of information that gives the flunky incredible power over someone who is, in almost every other context, perceived to be better than they are (especially in this case involving a young rich kid with an expensive toy). Most human beings, when confronted with such an imbalance of power, are not going to be able to resist abusing their power. This is self-c…

> Yes, yes, isn't so unreasonable the way those "flunkies" expect to be treated like worthwhile human beings? It is unreasonable for them to use their power to coerce the sort of treatment from people that they mistakenly believe they are entitled to. This is the case whether you consider them flunkies or community heroes.

Why is it mistaken to expect to be treated nicely? When did it become ok to be an asshole to fellow citizens?

When I go to the convenience store to buy a donut, I am nice to the clerk behind the counter. When I go through customs, I am nice to the agent behind the counter. How are those mistakes?

Re: The Department of Homeland Security Stole My Boat Today

#80

Post by harrylove »

The boat in question[1] would appear to be a Coastal Craft 400 IPS[2]. Roughly, $1M CAD (roughly, $1M USD at today's rate). I don't have that kind of money lying around for anything, much less a boat, but I suppose I'd be a little pissed myself if all of it was in the hands of someone else due to red tape.

1. https://twitter.com/BrianKrantz/status/279015063661199360/ph...

2. http://coastalcraft.com/coastal-craft-400-ips/boat-specs-400...

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