Petition to make unlocking phones legal again passes 100,000 signatures • Hacker News Board

Re: Petition to make unlocking phones legal again passes 100,000 signatures

#121

Post by ajross » Thu, Feb 21, 2013, 8:24 PM UTC

jlgreco wrote: post #118

ajross wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of effect were you expecting? The president promises to do whatever you want as long as you get N "signatures" on a weakly authenticated website? Even if you got those N people to all show up in person at the White House door, wrapping policy around the desires of a vocal minority is not a valid or just way to structure a government. They promised to respond, which is about all they can promise. And this gi…

> Basically this is a tool to better inform policy decisions No, it is actually a safety valve. If the public gets a little too agitated about anything they can go sign a petition to let of some steam. This petition site furthers couch-potato politics; it enables people to 'do their bit' without actually moving their ass. It neutralizes those who are naturally prone to apathy already.

Fair enough. Let's just agree to disagree on that. Your explanation is a bit too far on the "been reading a bit too much dystopian pulp" side of the spectrum.

To argue that the practice of policy is cynical and easily corrupted is a truism. To say that the white house deliberately threw up a petition system to actively "neutralize" inconvenient opinions is just ridiculous, sorry. The white house staff are people just like you and I, and they care about many of the same things you do and truly want to do the right thing in the face of many competing interests. Don't turn them into Orwellian villains, it's not helpful.

Re: Petition to make unlocking phones legal again passes 100,000 signatures

#122

Post by jlgreco » Thu, Feb 21, 2013, 8:25 PM UTC

jdechko wrote: post #88

Alex3917 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real problem is there aren't enough congress people. If we multiplied the number of house and senate seats by 10, in order to bring the ratio of citizens to representatives back to the original levels, then it would solve 95% of the problems even without comprehensive finance reform.

The real problem is that there are too many congress people. We have 535 congress members trying to come to an agreement on important things like actually developing a working budget. Can you imagine over 5,000 people voicing opinions on what a budget ought to look like?

Then maybe we should consider the possibility that it doesn't make any sense to have a country this large.

Why should people living in Florida have any say whatsoever into the affairs of people living five thousand miles away in Alaska? Why vice-versa? How does that make any more sense than people in London having a say in the lives of people three thousand miles away in Boston?

Re: Petition to make unlocking phones legal again passes 100,000 signatures

#123

Post by jlgreco » Thu, Feb 21, 2013, 8:29 PM UTC

ajross wrote: post #121

jlgreco wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Basically this is a tool to better inform policy decisions No, it is actually a safety valve. If the public gets a little too agitated about anything they can go sign a petition to let of some steam. This petition site furthers couch-potato politics; it enables people to 'do their bit' without actually moving their ass. It neutralizes those who are naturally prone to apathy already.

Fair enough. Let's just agree to disagree on that. Your explanation is a bit too far on the "been reading a bit too much dystopian pulp" side of the spectrum. To argue that the practice of policy is cynical and easily corrupted is a truism. To say that the white house deliberately threw up a petition system to actively "neutralize" inconvenient opinions is just ridiculous, sorry. The white house staff are people just…

The less dystopic version of my interpretation is that the site is just a way of keeping people happy, rather than "neutralized". Does that seem so implausible to you?

> The white house staff are people just like you and I

See, that realization is what enables me to believe they would make a petition site just to keep people happy. It is something rather frequently seen in the "real world" from "normal people" (see: suggestion boxes in the breakroom at work), and is exactly the sort of thing I could see myself doing. Hell, I have done it. Have someone that is mad at you? Let them vent for a while until they calm down, then tell them why they are wrong.

This sort of tactic isn't unique bizarre super-villian behavior. It is standard bullshit.

If the intent were completely pure, merely to educate, they wouldn't have people perform a meaningless action before they got their cookie. You don't get that far in politics by being clueless about how to gauge public interest in a topic without resorting to an online tally of interest. That is simply inconceivable.

Re: Petition to make unlocking phones legal again passes 100,000 signatures

#124

Post by sinak » Thu, Feb 21, 2013, 8:43 PM UTC

malandrew wrote: post #86

sinak wrote: post #44

Hey everyone, I started this petition. Very glad we made it to 100k, and excited to see how the White House responds. I'm well aware that the WH may not take any real action though. Please sign up at http://fixthedmca.org if you care about this issue and want to continue helping the move to fix this issue permanently.

Seems like we'd be better off with a system just like the Whitehouse one but designed for petitioning both the President and our representatives at the same time. At the end of the day, the executive branch doesn't make laws. It just signs them at the end of the process. Fixing the DMCA needs to start in the legislative branch (or be ruled unconstitutional by the judicial). The petition system should geolocate you, s…

Yep, these are all great ideas. Building a platform for doing this is going to be tricky though. If anyone out there wants to help, please email me at sina.khanifar@gmail.com. I'm an amateur ruby/rails dev, and a pretty decent designer, but I definitely need help.

Re: Petition to make unlocking phones legal again passes 100,000 signatures

#125

Post by pasbesoin » Thu, Feb 21, 2013, 8:49 PM UTC

sinak wrote: post #44

Hey everyone, I started this petition. Very glad we made it to 100k, and excited to see how the White House responds. I'm well aware that the WH may not take any real action though. Please sign up at http://fixthedmca.org if you care about this issue and want to continue helping the move to fix this issue permanently.

At this point, publicizing their hypocrisy (and semi-secret dealings) is a pretty good action, in itself.

Re: Petition to make unlocking phones legal again passes 100,000 signatures

#126

Post by Nursie » Thu, Feb 21, 2013, 9:06 PM UTC

ratherbefuddled wrote: post #110

Nursie wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are they new? We've had them in the UK starting from about 7 or 8 years ago, unsure if we still do. All that ever happened when one reached the 'must get a response' threshold was some staffer would write a couple of quick sentences about how they weren't going to do whatever the thing was, and how you were wrong for wanting it. Useless exercise all round.

Actually in the UK anything getting 100k signatures is considered for debate in the House of Commons. You can see a list of debates that began in this manner (warning, pdf) here: http://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/backbe...

Is that new? Under Blair/Brown it was a waste of time and I've mostly been out of the country since then.

Re: Petition to make unlocking phones legal again passes 100,000 signatures

#127

Post by anigbrowl » Thu, Feb 21, 2013, 9:10 PM UTC

nateabele wrote: post #55

sinak wrote: post #44

Hey everyone, I started this petition. Very glad we made it to 100k, and excited to see how the White House responds. I'm well aware that the WH may not take any real action though. Please sign up at http://fixthedmca.org if you care about this issue and want to continue helping the move to fix this issue permanently.

Yeah, I hate to be that guy, but the 'petition to end all petitions' comes to mind. Particularly the bits about 'politically safe non-answers' and 'channeling public activism into a cul-de-sac'. :-/

Yeah, I hate to be that guy

There seems to be quite a crowd of you saying the same thing every time the subject of a petition comes up. Perhaps you could club together and have a support group.

Re: Petition to make unlocking phones legal again passes 100,000 signatures

#128

Post by anigbrowl » Thu, Feb 21, 2013, 9:14 PM UTC

manaskarekar wrote: post #7

It's funny how you have to petition to have lawmakers pay attention to an issue, when by definition, those people are there to represent the interest of the majority in the first place.

Why do you assume you're in the majority?

I heartily support the freedom to unlock one's own phone and so forth, but I'd bet $5 that the majority of people haven't thought about it that much and think carrier lockin is an acceptable price to pay for 'cheap' phones. Just because everyone you know agrees with you doesn't mean you form a majority; it just means you're part of a clique.

Re: Petition to make unlocking phones legal again passes 100,000 signatures

#129

Post by redblacktree » Thu, Feb 21, 2013, 9:15 PM UTC

jerf wrote: post #15

brador wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only there was a website where voters could see how every politician voted on every vote they've ever made when in power. It would cut right through any BS.

Not as much as you'd like. Thanks to massive omnibus bills, converting Yes and No votes into meaningful stands on issues is far harder than you'd like. A no vote on a bill putatively establishing $YOUR_FAVORITE_CAUSE as the law of the land may have been because a rider encouraging $YOUR_WORST_CAUSE was attached and the whole was not judged worthwhile, even before we consider mere politics themselves.

This is not to mention the constant horse trading that is the norm in congress. i.e. You vote for my bill and I'll vote for yours.

Re: Petition to make unlocking phones legal again passes 100,000 signatures

#130

Post by warfangle » Thu, Feb 21, 2013, 9:18 PM UTC

yakiv wrote: post #107

warfangle wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Organizations should not be able to donate to campaigns or political action committees. Unions, superpacs, all of it. If an organization wants to petition its members to donate to a campaign or political action committee, go for it. But it cannot coerce, it cannot apply punitive measures to members that do not donate, and it cannot be a religious institution that receives tax-exempt status.

Why does it matter here if the tax-exempt organization is religious or not? Pretty much every tax-exempt organization is going to have an agenda---if it didn't, it probably wouldn't exist. Why are religion-based agendas less tolerable here?

Religious organizations have the bonus of being able to coerce not only through threat of firing and social ostracization, but also through the threat of eternal damnation.

Tax-exempt religious organizations such as churches can (but often don't) have their tax-exempt status revoked for urging their congregation to vote for specific political candidates already.