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What Your Startup Culture Really Says: the toxic lies afoot in Silicon Valley

blog.prettylittlestatemachine.com

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Re: What Your Startup Culture Really Says: the toxic lies afoot in Silicon Valley

#31
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chuck, this thread stops being so benign when it starts offering up defenses for Levchin's hiring advice, which is frankly odious. That Levchin note is prefixed with a recommendation to actively resist diversity early on, and is followed by a rationalization for gender discrimination. If "culture fit" starts becoming a shibboleth for prejudice, that's just fine with me. One problem my company has never had is discrim…

Fair enough, let's not confuse ourselves though. Shanley's blog post asserted as motivation malice (vicious lies) to some common phrases used to describe some company cultures. She didn't really support any of her argument and used a lot of emotionally charged language that I interpreted to mean she had been told that she wasn't a good 'culture fit' for a job. harryh here, felt I was being dismissive (pejoratively) o…

I agree with 'harryh that you were being dismissive, but also like 'harryh I don't think that's a big deal. It's just a message board.

Rather than take the time to write a coherent response, I'm just going to hose the room down with bullets:

* If a tech company was heard to be rejecting candidates for not liking sports --- for instance, if well-qualified applicants were turned away for not knowing which teams were in the American League Central --- nerds would be on their lawn with pitchforks and torches.

* There are plenty of "classes" of that aren't protected. For instance, your political affiliation is fair game under the law. Discriminating based on personal politics seems reasonable to approximately zero of us.

* Age discrimination is both not regulated in the class of companies occupied by most startups and rampant across the industry.

* Lots of non-protected behaviors are in reality proxies for protected behaviors; in particular, "culture fit" is an extremely common proxy method to filter out older works and mothers.

* In the post we're talking about, the post linked in this thread, and even in Paul Graham's essays, there's a theme of startups having the privilege to ignore antidiscrimination laws early on. It does us no good to pretend that everyone's on the same page about protected employment classes when the most widely cited writings in the field say that the ability not to hire women who might have children† is a benefit of starting a company.

* Environments where team members can't fit in if they don't drink, don't work noon-9:00PM, don't listen to the same music, don't play foosball, or don't each lunch with the team are common in startuplandia, but aren't intrinsic to the concept of a startup. You say you know people who were happier when they left these kinds of companies. But people are also happier when they leave companies where they're harassed. Surely that's not a justification for harassment!

* You say you picked up emotional language in the post, and thus (we infer) engaged with the content differently. You should be aware that studies show that people --- men and women alike --- engage with women differently than they do men.† In particular, the ability to write a blog post and have it not be read as "emotional" is at least in part a male privilege. Try rereading the post, but this time, instead of coming to an early conclusion that it's emotional, tell yourself "this is a radically different perspective on startup culture than I have; what can I learn from it?"

I'm an arrogant guy, but I'm not arrogant enough to assume everyone is on board with this (yet): it is immoral to reject candidates for reasons other than predicted ability to produce for the team, and it is immoral to rationalize non-performance rejections by inventing grounds to predict poor performance (like "culture fit"). In most circumstances, I think it's probably immoral to run companies in a manner that would prevent qualified parents of small children from contributing. There are real culture fit issues, but the air has been so thoroughly poisoned by startup misbehavior that we're probably going to have to invent a new term to describe them.

Can you spot the problem with this logic?

†† Here's a recent study pertaining to the sciences: http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/09/14/1211286109*

Re: What Your Startup Culture Really Says: the toxic lies afoot in Silicon Valley

#32
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough, let's not confuse ourselves though. Shanley's blog post asserted as motivation malice (vicious lies) to some common phrases used to describe some company cultures. She didn't really support any of her argument and used a lot of emotionally charged language that I interpreted to mean she had been told that she wasn't a good 'culture fit' for a job. harryh here, felt I was being dismissive (pejoratively) o…

I agree with 'harryh that you were being dismissive, but also like 'harryh I don't think that's a big deal. It's just a message board. Rather than take the time to write a coherent response, I'm just going to hose the room down with bullets: * If a tech company was heard to be rejecting candidates for not liking sports --- for instance, if well-qualified applicants were turned away for not knowing which teams were in…

Those were all excellent bullets.

Re: What Your Startup Culture Really Says: the toxic lies afoot in Silicon Valley

#33
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough, let's not confuse ourselves though. Shanley's blog post asserted as motivation malice (vicious lies) to some common phrases used to describe some company cultures. She didn't really support any of her argument and used a lot of emotionally charged language that I interpreted to mean she had been told that she wasn't a good 'culture fit' for a job. harryh here, felt I was being dismissive (pejoratively) o…

I agree with 'harryh that you were being dismissive, but also like 'harryh I don't think that's a big deal. It's just a message board. Rather than take the time to write a coherent response, I'm just going to hose the room down with bullets: * If a tech company was heard to be rejecting candidates for not liking sports --- for instance, if well-qualified applicants were turned away for not knowing which teams were in…

I was unpersuaded by the argument shanley put forward that specific phrases in use by startups were in fact code for abusive and immoral behavior. So yes, I was (and continue to be) dismissive of the argument. Until harryh mentioned it, I had no knowledge of their sex.

Perhaps not surprisingly, I care very much about good corporate culture and effective teams. And have worked at various times, and various places, to change behaviors that were antithetical to that. Weeding out and shutting down those 'proxies' you mention. I see that as part of what 'management' does, when its working well. I don't believe I've ever stated that I condone any form of discrimination, direct, indirect, or proxied.

I also recognize in myself a tendency to react strongly to speech which indiscriminately maligns what are generally good conceptual frameworks. A similar example was Steve Yegge's maligning the entire concept of Agile programming. It hits a sort of conversational reflexive kneecap in me, resulting in a nearly involuntary response in rebuttal.

It is, as you say, 'just a message board.'

Re: What Your Startup Culture Really Says: the toxic lies afoot in Silicon Valley

#34
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with 'harryh that you were being dismissive, but also like 'harryh I don't think that's a big deal. It's just a message board. Rather than take the time to write a coherent response, I'm just going to hose the room down with bullets: * If a tech company was heard to be rejecting candidates for not liking sports --- for instance, if well-qualified applicants were turned away for not knowing which teams were in…

I was unpersuaded by the argument shanley put forward that specific phrases in use by startups were in fact code for abusive and immoral behavior. So yes, I was (and continue to be) dismissive of the argument . Until harryh mentioned it, I had no knowledge of their sex. Perhaps not surprisingly, I care very much about good corporate culture and effective teams. And have worked at various times, and various places, to…

I'm not here to judge you. If you think the gender of the author had no impact on you, that's great. I'm just suggesting that we keep our subconscious biases in mind as we evaluate arguments.

I don't know what forms of discrimination you do or don't condone. You point out that love of sports is not a protected class; from that, I infer that you might be OK with the idea of discriminating based on that; you are, in fact, (gently) sticking up for that behavior.

I also don't know what forms of discrimination you're aware of. It is clear to me that the operators of many tech startups are not aware of the impact their "culture" has on their inclusiveness. Most of those operators would claim not to be biased against e.g. mothers, but many would in fact be creating environments hostile to them anyways.

When we start to venture into this discussion, it's important for you to realize that we are also validating the post that you've dismissed. Perhaps we're using language that is more congenial to you; that's a fair thing to point out, but if so, again, I suggest you re-read and re-evaluate the post, because you may have missed other things in it.

It is all love† with me and this comment.

And procrastination

Re: What Your Startup Culture Really Says: the toxic lies afoot in Silicon Valley

#35
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was unpersuaded by the argument shanley put forward that specific phrases in use by startups were in fact code for abusive and immoral behavior. So yes, I was (and continue to be) dismissive of the argument . Until harryh mentioned it, I had no knowledge of their sex. Perhaps not surprisingly, I care very much about good corporate culture and effective teams. And have worked at various times, and various places, to…

I'm not here to judge you. If you think the gender of the author had no impact on you, that's great. I'm just suggesting that we keep our subconscious biases in mind as we evaluate arguments. I don't know what forms of discrimination you do or don't condone. You point out that love of sports is not a protected class; from that, I infer that you might be OK with the idea of discriminating based on that; you are, in fa…

"I suggest you re-read and re-evaluate the post, because you may have missed other things in it."

This is shaney's thesis statement:

"Culture is about power dynamics, unspoken priorities and beliefs, mythologies, conflicts, enforcement of social norms, creation of in/out groups and distribution of wealth and control inside companies. Culture is usually ugly. It is as much about the inevitable brokenness and dysfunction of teams as it is about their accomplishments. Culture is exceedingly difficult to talk about honestly. The critique of startup culture that came in large part from the agile movement has been replaced by sanitized, pompous, dishonest slogans."

You agree that this is a fair and true characterization of "culture" ? You were persuaded by her text that this is an accurate description of what motivates a corporate culture?

Re: What Your Startup Culture Really Says: the toxic lies afoot in Silicon Valley

#36
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not here to judge you. If you think the gender of the author had no impact on you, that's great. I'm just suggesting that we keep our subconscious biases in mind as we evaluate arguments. I don't know what forms of discrimination you do or don't condone. You point out that love of sports is not a protected class; from that, I infer that you might be OK with the idea of discriminating based on that; you are, in fa…

"I suggest you re-read and re-evaluate the post, because you may have missed other things in it." This is shaney's thesis statement: "Culture is about power dynamics, unspoken priorities and beliefs, mythologies, conflicts, enforcement of social norms, creation of in/out groups and distribution of wealth and control inside companies. Culture is usually ugly. It is as much about the inevitable brokenness and dysfuncti…

I found that asking the questions she asked about different elements of startup culture was in fact a useful exercise.

Re: What Your Startup Culture Really Says: the toxic lies afoot in Silicon Valley

#37
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So I think you answered your question, the effect is not fucked up, the effect is that the team doesn't get > distracted and this possible future employee doesn't feel alienated. Paypal avoided hiring people who would > feel bad at work, Stripe gave their interviewers a way to ask themselves "how do you really feel about hiring > this person." I agree that the effect is that the team doesn't get distracted. I agree…

We can be pedantic, but lets not. "> Stipulate her assertion: We reject qualified candidates based on superficial and unimportant reasons. Go ask a random person on the street if rejecting a job applicant because they said the word "hoops" is a superficial or unimportant reason. 99 times out of 100 they'll say yes." Isn't that leaving off a bit of context? Ask them if "Hiring someone who plays hoops on to a team that…

> You don't walk into a room full of people playing Magic the Gathering and tell them you need three more for a bridge game do you? It's a group of Magic players, not Bridge players.

I very well might because people aren't one dimensional and an interest in one card game might indicate an interest in others.

> Isn't that leaving off a bit of context? Ask them if "Hiring someone who plays hoops on to a team that thinks basketball is a stupid waste of time and recently campaigned against tax payer funding of a local venue for an NBA team." is a smart idea.

If the team is a political action group, then ok, otherwise it has nothing to do with software.

Re: What Your Startup Culture Really Says: the toxic lies afoot in Silicon Valley

#38

I'm actually quite surprised how offended some people are getting over this. It seems like a pretty reasonable article trying to bring awareness to how some of the things we laud thoughtlessly can be used as tools against us or others and actually not further our ideals. I had assumed HN was more open minded and deep enough to accept a critique and learn from it. Instead I see it getting flagged, and people dismissin…

[deleted]

Re: What Your Startup Culture Really Says: the toxic lies afoot in Silicon Valley

#39
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think we should be able to exclude gays in the military because of the negative effects on unit cohesion? If not, then what's the difference between that and our industry, in many cases, systematically excluding certain groups because it negatively effects their internal culture? > But the real point is that not being asked to join a community you won't fit in > with is a good thing for you and for the communi…

Sigh. I don't think we've made much progress but that's okay. I don't support discrimination. If you have been a victim of discrimination (I have) it sucks, and I feel badly for you. There are thousands of companies, some work hard all day and night, some have more family values, some see computer code as art, some see it as a means to an end, some aspire to operate as smoothly as possible, some as quickly as possibl…

Not every critique is based on "emotional hurt."

Re: What Your Startup Culture Really Says: the toxic lies afoot in Silicon Valley

#40
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I suggest you re-read and re-evaluate the post, because you may have missed other things in it." This is shaney's thesis statement: "Culture is about power dynamics, unspoken priorities and beliefs, mythologies, conflicts, enforcement of social norms, creation of in/out groups and distribution of wealth and control inside companies. Culture is usually ugly. It is as much about the inevitable brokenness and dysfuncti…

I found that asking the questions she asked about different elements of startup culture was in fact a useful exercise.

You didn't answer my question :-) That's okay of course. When I read her thesis it struck me as so patently false, I found myself asking the question "What sort of event set this off?" not "Are there insights here I should consider?"

A neighbor of mine had his home seized by the bank, it was underwater, and they weren't willing to negotiate the terms of the loan. He posted a piece that was not a whole lot different than shaney's except that he asserted that Banks were an immoral and illegal institution run by the 1% to fleece the rest of us of our money, he made several "points" about how what they said they were doing one thing, when the reality was that those activities were just a cover for taking more of your money. He uniformly ignored any market impact banks had and screamed in rage at their inhumanity.

He wasn't successfully making any sort of argument that banks have no reason to exist other than to fleece us. Nor did he develop any insights about how banks might be improved, or what we could use to replace them. He was angry, and hurt, and sad, and bitter. Banks, and the shadowy 'them' that run them, became the focus of his anger.

I get it that you and harryh saw a deeper question about culture in the article than I did. I just saw what looked, in form at least, venting and anger. Just like my neighbor's bank screed.

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