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The Ph.D Bust: America's Awful Market for Young Scientists

theatlantic.com

101–110 of 122 posts

Re: The Ph.D Bust: America's Awful Market for Young Scientists

#101

Most jobs, even technical ones, truly do not require a Ph. D. This is just the market sorting things out. Why have zero (or negative) income to get post baccalaureate education if you can go work somewhere (for money) and learn on the job?

> Why have zero (or negative) income to get post baccalaureate education if you can go work somewhere (for money) and learn on the job?

Well, ok, so here's the thing: If you apply to grad school in one of the physical or life sciences and they don't offer you a TAship for your first year[1], then they are politely telling you to f*ck off. It's "generally understood" (which means that nobody knows this unless someone tells them) that any serious offer comes with a TAship that will just barely pay your rent in a crappy one-bedroom apartment with a little left over for food.

[1] And make wild promises about how everyone has a full RAship with ponies by his second year

Re: The Ph.D Bust: America's Awful Market for Young Scientists

#102
post #33
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been to graduate school and disagree with your comment about expecting a tenure-track job. When you get to know them, PhD students are not poor deluded souls slaving away in the misguided expectation of a plush, secure position at the end. They are rather intelligent, motivated individuals, who choose to work on projects that are more interesting/important than optimal ad placement or crafty financial swaps, and…

Yeah, when I was in grad school, I and my friends said the same thing. However, when reality sinks in that choosing to work on such interesting stuff means living year-by-year on soft money at a postdoc salary, and that in many fields you have little advantage transitioning to a nonacademic job over someone with a MS, it doesn't seem like such a good deal anymore. Also, I'm not sure you're calibrated correctly. It's…

It's a few years in your 20s working on an interesting and very difficult project. Don't worry, you'll still be able to retire at thrice that age.

Re: The Ph.D Bust: America's Awful Market for Young Scientists

#103
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2813519

practicing what was called "the mushroom theory of management." It was an old expression, used in many other corners of corporate America. The Eclipse Group's managers defined it as follows: "Put 'em in the dark, feed 'em shit, and watch 'em grow."

"For everyone else - look straight at industry" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushroom_management

Re: The Ph.D Bust: America's Awful Market for Young Scientists

#104
IMHO this numbers must be compared with employment rates of people who haven't got into a PhD. We may discover a similar (or even more significant) downfall. I think that it is not an awful market specifically for young scientists, its an awful market for everybody.

Re: The Ph.D Bust: America's Awful Market for Young Scientists

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Physical and intellectual freedom are worth more to me than money.

Agreed, but, I don't see what a PhD has to do with any of these. My snarky, probably very ignorant, reply would be something like, if you want intellectual freedom, get a subscription to a library. Renegotiate your lowly Bachelor of Sciences' contract to work fewer hours, that'll get you physical freedom. Seriously. IMO someone reading through, say, the TAOCP, Rudin's Real and Complex Analysis, Horowitz & Hill's TAOE…

It depends on your subject. Libraries will only take you so far if you need access to a million-dollar microscope or a petaflop supercomputer to get your work done.

So be careful when you say "[reading these books will give you] more intellectual freedom afterwards than any PhD graduate." That's simply not true. And I'm not even touching on the benefits of having a good mentor...

Re: The Ph.D Bust: America's Awful Market for Young Scientists

#106
post #59

Two points not made here: 1) It's quite common to study for PhD while getting paid for it instead of paying for it - and in that case, it should be treted as a fun and enriching (though not very high paying) job for a couple of years instead of "delaying 4 years". Getting into a huge debt for it is a whole different thing, though. 2) It feels that this problem is partly USA-specific. Sure, other places may have notic…

Opportunity cost. PhD stipends pay less than unskilled labor, after you subtract "tuition"

Depends on location and situation; here in EU the take-home pay (if the professor has a grant/project to take in PhD students) tends to be quite livable - less than an equivalent commercial IT job, but more than unskilled labor and more than, say, a humanities master would make in their area.

Re: The Ph.D Bust: America's Awful Market for Young Scientists

#107
The article is written from an American perspective where PhDs (5? 6? years) are typically several years longer than, say, in Britain (where they're 3/4 years). So, a question: do you think it's possible to have the best of both worlds? Do a shorter PhD for the intellectual benefit without sacrificing too much opportunity cost in industry?

I've chosen to do a PhD because I enjoy research and it gives me the time to learn a host of other skills too. I should have just turned 25 when I finish, all going well, with a whole bunch of stuff to add to my CV (not just papers, but the more intangible stuff too--going from a shy undergrad to someone who can present at international conferences, foster collaborations between different groups at different institutions, program relatively competently, use very delicate/expensive equipment responsibly etc.) Though it feels worth it to me it's also difficult to get perspective from "within" the PhD, so I'm asking anyone reading this from a more objective point of view: do you think it's all worth it? Or would it have been better to go into industry at the end of my undergrad? Obviously it varies from person to person, but I'm just trying to get a sense for where other people stand on this.

Re: The Ph.D Bust: America's Awful Market for Young Scientists

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nate Silver has a similar point[1], and claims that he has been successful by choosing fields that were not already saturated with excellent players. Baseball prediction was waiting to be cracked wide open with modern statistical techniques. It would now be much, much harder to make meaningful gains, you'd be competing with a host of competent firms who have years of experience and have long since claimed all the low…

> Baseball prediction was waiting to be cracked wide open with modern statistical techniques. Interesting point. How about Bitcoin? Am I too late to that game, or is it too hard to model?

As a currency people trade, you can always make money. Short it when you think it'll go down, buy when you think it'll go up. If you're right, you win.

Re: The Ph.D Bust: America's Awful Market for Young Scientists

#109
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, but, I don't see what a PhD has to do with any of these. My snarky, probably very ignorant, reply would be something like, if you want intellectual freedom, get a subscription to a library. Renegotiate your lowly Bachelor of Sciences' contract to work fewer hours, that'll get you physical freedom. Seriously. IMO someone reading through, say, the TAOCP, Rudin's Real and Complex Analysis, Horowitz & Hill's TAOE…

It depends on your subject. Libraries will only take you so far if you need access to a million-dollar microscope or a petaflop supercomputer to get your work done. So be careful when you say "[reading these books will give you] more intellectual freedom afterwards than any PhD graduate." That's simply not true. And I'm not even touching on the benefits of having a good mentor...

> So be careful when you say "[reading these books will give you] more intellectual freedom afterwards than any PhD graduate." That's simply not true.

You do have a point, but the way I see true "intellectual freedom" (lolcraft may have meant somth similar) is that let's say you spend your late 20s-early 30s slaving away at a post-doc only to have a chance to access a "petaflop supercomputer" and then you suddenly decide that you actually are really interested in classical Persian poetry and you'd like to devote some time to learning Persian, only to realize you do not have time for that because hey, somebody needs to write those papers for the grant money to come in and your chances for tenure to remain intact.

Replace "Persian poetry" with the study of Mathematical logic, the reading of the pre-Socratics or trying to make sense of the early-medieval migration patterns, as things stand right now both the people following PhDs and those too immersed in industry are not "intellectual free" because they have no time for these sorts of intellectual pursuits. We do need to find that middle-ground between extreme-science and industry again, we do need universal people like Leonardo and Democritus back.

Re: The Ph.D Bust: America's Awful Market for Young Scientists

#110
post #107

The article is written from an American perspective where PhDs (5? 6? years) are typically several years longer than, say, in Britain (where they're 3/4 years). So, a question: do you think it's possible to have the best of both worlds? Do a shorter PhD for the intellectual benefit without sacrificing too much opportunity cost in industry? I've chosen to do a PhD because I enjoy research and it gives me the time to l…

I'm doing a PhD in NZ (also 3-4y). It's nice to hear someone who has similar reasons to mine for doing a PhD. Like you, I'm hoping to get the best of both worlds.

For me, my (engineering) PhD is a chance to take on an entire project. I get to do system-level design, hardware, software, signal processing, user interface, the lot. The thought of spending four years in a job at the bottom of the ladder doing small, well-defined tasks that my manager told me to do didn't really appeal. Instead I get to manage a project, make real decisions, and learn to deal with the consequences of those decisions. I'm not doing it for the sake of any opportunities that having a PhD might bring so much as the opportunities presented by actually doing the PhD.

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