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The Ph.D Bust: America's Awful Market for Young Scientists

theatlantic.com

11–20 of 122 posts

Re: The Ph.D Bust: America's Awful Market for Young Scientists

#11
post #6

The article fails to compare Computer Science PhD's who are in high demand and job openings for them far exceed the supply of CS PhD grads.

That's a big point that should be mentioned. The problem is getting a PhD in a field that no one is interested in paying you for leaves you with only academia as an option (I know multiple PhD's who realized towards the end that they don't want to go into academia).

Re: The Ph.D Bust: America's Awful Market for Young Scientists

#12

Most jobs, even technical ones, truly do not require a Ph. D. This is just the market sorting things out. Why have zero (or negative) income to get post baccalaureate education if you can go work somewhere (for money) and learn on the job?

Physical and intellectual freedom are worth more to me than money.

Re: The Ph.D Bust: America's Awful Market for Young Scientists

#13
post #9

As far as desirable traits, a job can be: 1. Interesting 2. Secure 3. Lucrative You get to pick two at most, and that's if you're lucky--most people only get to pick one, or none. Jobs in academia are certainly no exception to this rule.

OT, but I find it amazing that the triangle of desirable traits applies in so many places. There's the obvious "faster, cheaper, better. pick any two" and yesterday I heard another one "sane, smart and beautiful, pick two", which I'm sure has a corollary like "handsome, sensitive and rich, pick two". It's as if Brook's "no silver bullet" can be applied to just about everything our life (or it's just that easy to pick three desirable traits that are often mutually exclusive of one another)

Re: The Ph.D Bust: America's Awful Market for Young Scientists

#14
post #5

It will no doubt be shocking news to Mr. Weissmann to find out that factors such as a desire to learn more or to make new contributions to human knowledge can motivate aspiring PhD candidates. It's also rather ironic to see such analyses promoted by someone who chose a career in the notoriously unprofitable field of journalism.

The problem is the number of PhD's doing "nothing" after education is going up. "You don't need a PhD to do nothing, man. Take a look at my cousin: he's a dropout, don't do shit."

Re: The Ph.D Bust: America's Awful Market for Young Scientists

#15

Most jobs, even technical ones, truly do not require a Ph. D. This is just the market sorting things out. Why have zero (or negative) income to get post baccalaureate education if you can go work somewhere (for money) and learn on the job?

I am getting a PhD (with a stipend) and learning on the job.

Re: The Ph.D Bust: America's Awful Market for Young Scientists

#16
post #9

As far as desirable traits, a job can be: 1. Interesting 2. Secure 3. Lucrative You get to pick two at most, and that's if you're lucky--most people only get to pick one, or none. Jobs in academia are certainly no exception to this rule.

OT, but I find it amazing that the triangle of desirable traits applies in so many places. There's the obvious "faster, cheaper, better. pick any two" and yesterday I heard another one "sane, smart and beautiful, pick two", which I'm sure has a corollary like "handsome, sensitive and rich, pick two". It's as if Brook's "no silver bullet" can be applied to just about everything our life (or it's just that easy to pick…

Yes, and then there are the Venn diagrams that describe the disappointing result of any combination of two desirable traits. Here's one humorous example:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-7L9xAjgoZxo/ToydjJ7Hb8I/AAAAAAAABG...

Re: The Ph.D Bust: America's Awful Market for Young Scientists

#17
post #9

As far as desirable traits, a job can be: 1. Interesting 2. Secure 3. Lucrative You get to pick two at most, and that's if you're lucky--most people only get to pick one, or none. Jobs in academia are certainly no exception to this rule.

OT, but I find it amazing that the triangle of desirable traits applies in so many places. There's the obvious "faster, cheaper, better. pick any two" and yesterday I heard another one "sane, smart and beautiful, pick two", which I'm sure has a corollary like "handsome, sensitive and rich, pick two". It's as if Brook's "no silver bullet" can be applied to just about everything our life (or it's just that easy to pick…

yeah, that fascinates me too. there are even some actual theorems, like brewer's cap theorem [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAP_theorem] and arrow's voting paradox [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrows_impossibility_theorem], that take the "pick any two" form.

Re: The Ph.D Bust: America's Awful Market for Young Scientists

#18
post #9

As far as desirable traits, a job can be: 1. Interesting 2. Secure 3. Lucrative You get to pick two at most, and that's if you're lucky--most people only get to pick one, or none. Jobs in academia are certainly no exception to this rule.

I doubt this.

Very talented people can easily accomplish all three, especially in tech.

I guess the lucrative and secure part are supposed to be in tension? EG, if something is lucrative, there will be lots of competition that fights and eats away the security? But that same lucrativeness causes security, eg, golden hand cuffs.

Re: The Ph.D Bust: America's Awful Market for Young Scientists

#19
Canada is handing out citizenship for anybody with a Ph.D right now, so are a lot of other countries. If you don't want to move write books or self publish ebooks, or write articles for industry journals or mailing lists and watch offers come in. This is what a girl I know with a doctorate in anthropology did: write endless articles for some academic publication, she had a job offer in Israel after the first few months because another graduate somewhere was doing research into what she was writing about.

Re: The Ph.D Bust: America's Awful Market for Young Scientists

#20
I am surprised that so many people are relating PhD's to the money you'll make. I hear (very frequently) that "the amount of time you spend doing your PhD will put you far behind the 4 years of having a job" or "if you want to get rich, go into ...", or "management is where all the money is; you need an MBA for that".

Uh... I'm doing a PhD because I like scientific research and can't stand the thought of being a process engineer. If I'm going to spend 8 hours a day working on something for the rest of my life, it better be something I enjoy! While it is possible to do R&D with a bachelor's degree, your chances of being able to do exactly the kind of research you want goes up significantly with a PhD, plus you've already had the experience of doing it for 4 years.

Also, I'm not sure where this "not much money" concept comes from anyway. I'll start at an engineering salary, right out of grad school. I guess that's not "Hacker News wealthy", but that's plenty more than I need to even live comfortably!

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