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Rails Has Turned into Java

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Re: Rails Has Turned into Java

#41

Post by ef4 »

axlerunner wrote: post #5

To answer the question...Yes, Java has changed for the better. Give it a go...you'll be impressed.

I actually had to write some Java recently for the first time in about ten years. I was hoping that the evolution of the language would make it less painful than it used to be.

I was unimpressed. Generics are better than nothing, but still dramatically worse than having a reasonable syntax for anonymous closures. The newer iterator syntax is better than nothing, but still maddeningly lacking in the most basic type inference -- any compiler that can't infer the type of "thing" here is stupid:

    ArrayList list = this.buildList();
    for (MyClass thing: list){
        ...
    }
The programmer is still forced to overspecify and manually convert between types like ArrayList and Thing[], even though 95% of the time the difference has no impact worth thinking about.

I could go on, but my point is that people like me who dislike Java dislike it for fundamental reasons. We're not going to be converted, because the changes we would demand would probably horrify Java's core audience.

Re: Rails Has Turned into Java

#42

Post by aantix »

lkrubner wrote: post #21
adventureloop wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know it is not the mode to comment to mention your own up vote. Rails might have deteriorated in ease of use, but I cannot imagine it being worse than Java EE was in 2004. Modern Java EE is a world of pain, even simple apps are difficult to build. The entire front end stack is antisocial, difficult to extend and anachronistic. I don't think anyone working with a modern java web stack could read this post about rail…

I think the point is, other systems have now emerged that can reasonably claim to represent the cutting edge of simplicity and ease. Rails held that distinction for several years, it was the reference point people used to criticize or praise other systems. But Rails is no longer the clear leader in ease of use or sophistication of 3rd party libraries. In response to Rails, lots of new languages and frameworks emerged…

Curious, what other web dev frameworks offer a unified stack (ORM, deployment, dependency management, testing, project structuring)?

Re: Rails Has Turned into Java

#43

Post by tmo9d »

vampirechicken wrote: post #3

It's the age old set of trade-offs between buy and build. Build it all yourself and it takes forever, but you understand it all. Buy it from somebody else, and you get it quickly, but you're at their mercy for efficient understandable code. No language or framework is immune. Enjoy your java.

I don't think it's the build vs. buy trade-off, I think it is more a question of efficient platforms for vendor collaboration resulting in the emergence of voluntary standards that create efficient and open markets kind of problem. Ruby has a DIY ethic which is respectable, but there's little infrastructure to support market-wide discussions throughout the ecosystem.

Really, if you want to make analogies. Rails is essential loose federation covered under Articles of Confederation while Java is to be appreciated as a strong Federal system that allows for states to innovate.

Re: Rails Has Turned into Java

#44

Post by davidw »

tmo9d wrote: post #40
davidw wrote: post #36

Flame-bait title if I've ever seen one. Let's see an actual comparison with some numbers: * Lines of code, and number of tasks necessary to get a development environment set up. * Memory used with one client accessing the system, and with, say, 10 clients accessing it. * Some performance benchmarks. I keep my ear to the ground, and have used enough languages in my time that jumping to a new one isn't that big a deal,…

You want that. Ok? I'm not sure you are going to like the results. But, if you want a follow up, I'll happily supply it.

Rails is probably not going to do well in the performance department, but I think the other metrics would be interesting to see, and require actual research, rather than just whipping up an attention-gathering headline.

Re: Rails Has Turned into Java

#45

Post by tmo9d »

kevinconroy wrote: post #32
tmo9d wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I added in a note, I think this is the multi-year result of not having a old, grey-haired standards committee around creating APIs. I made fun of Sun and Oracle for doing things like this for years, but after futzing around with Rails frameworks, integration, and edge-cases. I think I would have preferred to have people sitting around a conference call saying things like, "Hey Devise people, your authentication appro…

I, for one, welcome our W3C overlords.

Oh c'mon it's much much worse than that. Oracle runs the JCP not the W3C.

And, yes, I admit it, I'm a jerk.

Re: Rails Has Turned into Java

#46

Post by cmbaus »

Couldn't be more timely for me. I've been working on documenting the Discourse installation. For someone who doesn't work in Ruby every day, even as a long time Linux user, it is daunting.

Once an application, no matter the language, has a significant number of external dependencies deploying it becomes a challenge.

Re: Rails Has Turned into Java

#47

Post by packet »

jgjgcghjhhbfv wrote: post #28
kevinconroy wrote: post #6

No, Rails hasn't turned into Java. Rails has matured into a complex ecosystem. Java has also matured into a complex ecosystem. Frameworks upon frameworks is a recipe for complexity, potential performance problems, bottlenecks, and environmental/context-specific issues regardless of the language that you're using. Will there ever be a language or simple framework that is popular, solves all problems, and doesn't get m…

That is fine and true. But if you guys know this why do rails people love to bash on Java and act like rails is the second coming of Jesus. Fine, you love your language but why the unnecessary insults? That always bugged me. A community like that is toxic.

As a Java developer that got in to Rails I have been saying this for years (especially since Rails 3). I'm glad someone else has finally brought the discussion to HN.

Re: Rails Has Turned into Java

#48

Post by huntedsnark »

jgjgcghjhhbfv wrote: post #28
kevinconroy wrote: post #6

No, Rails hasn't turned into Java. Rails has matured into a complex ecosystem. Java has also matured into a complex ecosystem. Frameworks upon frameworks is a recipe for complexity, potential performance problems, bottlenecks, and environmental/context-specific issues regardless of the language that you're using. Will there ever be a language or simple framework that is popular, solves all problems, and doesn't get m…

That is fine and true. But if you guys know this why do rails people love to bash on Java and act like rails is the second coming of Jesus. Fine, you love your language but why the unnecessary insults? That always bugged me. A community like that is toxic.

I really don't think that's the case anymore. At the most recent RubyConf in Denver there was nothing but love for the JVM, running Ruby on it, and even utilizing Java itself when the need arose.

Re: Rails Has Turned into Java

#49

Post by nathanappere »

tmo9d wrote: post #20
kevinconroy wrote: post #6

No, Rails hasn't turned into Java. Rails has matured into a complex ecosystem. Java has also matured into a complex ecosystem. Frameworks upon frameworks is a recipe for complexity, potential performance problems, bottlenecks, and environmental/context-specific issues regardless of the language that you're using. Will there ever be a language or simple framework that is popular, solves all problems, and doesn't get m…

I added in a note, I think this is the multi-year result of not having a old, grey-haired standards committee around creating APIs. I made fun of Sun and Oracle for doing things like this for years, but after futzing around with Rails frameworks, integration, and edge-cases. I think I would have preferred to have people sitting around a conference call saying things like, "Hey Devise people, your authentication appro…

What would be the point of making it a standard ? It's already one de-facto. I prefer to have other solutions not trying to be devise but rather solving auth problems in their own way. Also, the lack of documentation is often balanced by the great readability of the code (Which is extremely clean / straightforward for devise & omniauth & most of the strategies)

Re: Rails Has Turned into Java

#50

Post by douglasisshiny »

lkrubner wrote: post #21
adventureloop wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know it is not the mode to comment to mention your own up vote. Rails might have deteriorated in ease of use, but I cannot imagine it being worse than Java EE was in 2004. Modern Java EE is a world of pain, even simple apps are difficult to build. The entire front end stack is antisocial, difficult to extend and anachronistic. I don't think anyone working with a modern java web stack could read this post about rail…

I think the point is, other systems have now emerged that can reasonably claim to represent the cutting edge of simplicity and ease. Rails held that distinction for several years, it was the reference point people used to criticize or praise other systems. But Rails is no longer the clear leader in ease of use or sophistication of 3rd party libraries. In response to Rails, lots of new languages and frameworks emerged…

I don't doubt that this is the case, but can you mention some of the language / frameworks which have done this?

(I'm not being critical; I'm really just curious and would like to learn about different frameworks).

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