I wonder what part of their path finding algo created a glitch like the drone float[1]
The StarCraft path-finding hack
21–30 of 87 posts
Re: The StarCraft path-finding hack
#22Earlier quoted context omitted.
Really? That's interesting. I've noticed that units never seem to have the good sense to target Brood Lords rather than Broodlings when they have a choice. It seemed odd, given that the AI had improved so much in other areas -- pathfinding, running from unwinnable fights, varying its opening strategies. It never occurred to me that things might be that way because it's fun !
Since you're interested, here's the video (recorded by a SC1 pro) that catalyzed the SC1 behavior being recreated in the SC2 expansion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Rqx8s2qKXM
So the question is, should weird, hard to detect and buggy behavior that experienced players can exploit be kept as part of the game? It's a highly subjective and, to me, non-obvious answer.
Players get very attached to timing and knowledge based tricks, especially ones that give them an advantage. Does that mean they should get them? There's a tricky balance between alienating new players and rewarding skill and dedication in old players.
Re: The StarCraft path-finding hack
#23Here's an interesting list of bugs [1] (some related to path-finding some not) found in SC / Broodwars.
Re: The StarCraft path-finding hack
#24One of the reasons Starcraft is interesting as an e-sport is because bugs like this have kept the game in racial balance for over a decade. For example, the game was not designed to give mutalisks the ability to stack on top of each other. However, at some point in the early 2000s, it was discovered that when 11 mutalisks were grouped with 1 overlord, the mutas tended to stack: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfqQYJzq…
Is changing the behavior of a group of units because it happens to be grouped with a distant unit really a good thing for the game?
It makes for a good story, and it's great fun for the person who discovers it. Players like it, because it lets them beat new players even more easily. But players don't always know what's best for them.
This is why Starcraft 2 multiplayer is structured to force players to play on complicated, resource balanced Blizzard approved maps. Starcraft 1 allowed ranked games on any map, and players largely played simplified, resource-soaked maps. Or played nothing but Big Game Hunters and Lost Temple. This was what players thought they wanted, but it wasn't what was best for the game.
Re: The StarCraft path-finding hack
#25> Others, like a multiplayer synchronization bug, would pop up and require dedicated attention from several members of the programming team — sometimes weeks of effort for a single problem. Other game developers have reported similar experiences with their sync bugs: Ages of Empires and Supreme Commander.
This seems like a pain point that's an opportunity in disguise. A technology that made it much easier to get multiplayer sync correct would be an enormous advantage.
> While programmers can become obsessed with finding the most pure, abstract, clean, even sublime solution to a problem, there are times in a project when a few sacrifices have to be made. If they’re done well no one notices the evil compromises that had to be made, as is true for the hacks written up by Brandon Sheffield in his article Dirty Coding Tricks.
Human beans [sic] are probably full of Dirty Coding Tricks -- as organisms, I mean. It's just that we work well enough.
Re: The StarCraft path-finding hack
#26I remember thinking to myself, at a talk given by an Activision employee on some Mechwarrior pathing issues, that these guys were re-inventing printed circuit board layout.
They had the same sorts of constraints, go from here to there, don't cross certain types of 'terrain' (traces in the layout case). Game units don't get to make vias though :-)
Re: The StarCraft path-finding hack
#27Earlier quoted context omitted.
Since you're interested, here's the video (recorded by a SC1 pro) that catalyzed the SC1 behavior being recreated in the SC2 expansion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Rqx8s2qKXM
So the question is, should weird, hard to detect and buggy behavior that experienced players can exploit be kept as part of the game? It's a highly subjective and, to me, non-obvious answer. Players get very attached to timing and knowledge based tricks, especially ones that give them an advantage. Does that mean they should get them? There's a tricky balance between alienating new players and rewarding skill and ded…
Yeah, it's hard to get sympathy from me for upping micro requirements. That could be because I'm bad at it, and find it uninteresting. Those might also be related. :P
For example, take that trick with keeping a couple of void rays charged up on each other. I don't think that's something amazing everyone should aspire to. I think it's obnoxious.
That sort of thing is all right if it gives you interesting decisions to make -- and the video about the carriers argued well enough that it does. It ought to be overt, though: A pre-launch interceptors button, not hidden knowledge that invisible, unselectable interceptors stay out if you keep carriers moving.
Re: The StarCraft path-finding hack
#28Earlier quoted context omitted.
...and made it one of the most interesting units in multiplayer. In programmer-land, where all abstractions should be pure and elegant, the carrier (as implemented in SC1) may be abhorrent, but this is irrelevant because the customers (i.e. the players) loved it . Some of the quirky behavior of the SC1 carrier was even re-implemented into the upcoming SC2 expansion at the behest of fans. Why? Because it made the unit…
Really? That's interesting. I've noticed that units never seem to have the good sense to target Brood Lords rather than Broodlings when they have a choice. It seemed odd, given that the AI had improved so much in other areas -- pathfinding, running from unwinnable fights, varying its opening strategies. It never occurred to me that things might be that way because it's fun !
Well things like that are no fun. However much of the popularity and skill required to play Starcraft is not in because it is such a greatly designed game. Most of the challenge come from the point that the development team has found creative solutions around its limitations and that leaves a lot of opportunities to exploit and hack its shortcomings.
Supreme Commander for instance has much better user interface and unit control mechanisms. This makes it much more of a macro game, since micro managing units is not necessary to the same degree. And indeed some people really like micro managing stuff and for the others it serves as an excuse to why they suck at the game.
Although I love Starcraft 2 I think its UI is horrible in comparison to what else is out there. However it is an essential part of the game and it gives it character.
Re: The StarCraft path-finding hack
#29Nice article. Good balance between tech details & understandability.
Never really noticed path finding issues (well no more than other games)...except that one time I attempted a massive zerg rush. If you've got enough of them the pathfinding algo craps itself and sends them into the enemy base +- individually. So much for rushing...
Re: The StarCraft path-finding hack
#30What no one has mentioned is how many "essential" skills have arisen as a result of this hack. For instance, an everpresent threat in Starcraft is the Zerg Rush, in which a player skips building an economy to build zerglings---cheap, light, raider units--- to attack the opponent early before he has any defenses (as he, presumably, has not skipped building an economy). The zerglings are melee attackers, so holding a s…
I played Warcraft 3 and the same trick was used to surround a hero with ghouls. Since ghouls are also the unit that gathers lumber for the Undead Race, they enter a no-collision state when you right click on a tree.
This behavior was patched because it was too strong. You would just click on a tree behind the enemy hero and all your ghouls would pass through all the other units (footmen for example) and they could surround the hero and kill him. Once you kill the hero in Warcraft 3, there's no point fighting anymore :P