Using SimCity to diagnose my home town's traffic problem • Hacker News Board

Re: Using SimCity to diagnose my home town's traffic problem

#101

Post by skinnynerd » Wed, Feb 20, 2013, 2:46 PM UTC

nekojima wrote: post #45

justjimmy wrote: post #11

Sim City should be a recommended game for those taking Geography, especially in HS. When I first started playing, I was reacting to situations - fires, disasters, as they happened, which was already too late. Or I'd build all the fire stations in a nice row, or police stations all in a ordered block of land, then get frustrated when they all jammed each other trying to get out and answer calls. My tactics from Red Al…

A better (and perhaps cheaper) solution would be to use either Cities in Motion which has a good transportation model, or Cities XL (I'd suggest the 2011 version for price and performance over 2012) which has a good balanced play as the cities grow in size. These seem from initial new SC exposure, to be better models for teaching and from a learning perspective. As well the saved games feature (hardly a feature, more…

There is also Mobility (http://www.mobility-online.de/en/informations/generalinforma...). It was designed by a university and auto manufacturer so they put a bit more thought into their traffic algorithms. I feel it is a bit eurocentric because there are a lot of things they do in Europe which we do not do here as far as traffic management goes, but it is an interesting simulation/game to fool around with. Since the German federal government also played some role in its development, you will see more of a bureaucratic approach to the game.

Re: Using SimCity to diagnose my home town's traffic problem

#102

Post by monkeypizza » Wed, Feb 20, 2013, 2:48 PM UTC

guelo wrote: post #89

monkeypizza wrote: post #77

I love simcity, but recently played it and noticed it is really paternalistic. The attitude towards development it has is very much like China - everything is controlled and all land is owned by the government, and the government's job is to manage zoning, roads, schools, education, in order to make people happy. Nobody actually has any property rights - even trees don't grow without government planting efforts. Farm…

WTF. Libertarianism is like some grumpy religion, people are always trying to bring it up even when it doesn't fit. And it's so wrong about how the real world works. If a community doesn't have a school the first thing that normally happens is they form a government and elect a school board to figure how to build and fund it. Same with a fire department, even with volunteers there are a lot of expenses that need to b…

Thanks for the comment.

I was more thinking about how things worked from say 1500 to 1800 in the US. During that time, a lot of the things that originate with government in simcity would have been done independently. i.e. religious schools would be started by local enclaves (sometimes with organizational help of government, which they controlled due to being dominant in that area, but not originated from it). In the US at least, land use was pretty free for most of that time, no zoning. Look at the institutions within a gold rush town, for example - although there was a government, they couldn't control much, the people came first and built lots of infrastructure before there ever was a sheriff or mayor. Rollicking, fast-developing cities from that era weren't restrained by zoning laws, and they developed in interesting (not always good) ways. It is interesting to realize that most of the current buildings in the US major cities would actually be illegal under the current law for new buildings.

Rather than from libertarianism, my ideas for this came from a couple books about city planning I've read recently, "The Power Broker", and "The Death and Life of Great American Cities". Neither one is really libertarian, but rather look at how government power can be used or misused in cities. The latter one particularly is not at all libertarian, and is a strong advocate of government intervention into neighborhood design - but, lays out a smarter way it should be done, based on the author's understanding of the way cities work.

Simcity seems to be designed by someone influenced by the ideas criticized in "death and life" - i.e. very strong zoning laws, top-down control and predetermination for how things will work in every neighborhood, high value placed on "open space" without consideration of usage patterns etc.

Re: Using SimCity to diagnose my home town's traffic problem

#103

Post by UnoriginalGuy » Wed, Feb 20, 2013, 3:16 PM UTC

bdunbar wrote: post #98

guelo wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everybody wants well-run government, that's not libertarianism. Libertarians want less government, not better government.

I may have skipped over some steps in my thinking. But yes, a small government with few to little power is what we need.

Yes, because big business doesn't have enough power yet already.

That's who would step in. You would reduce the size of government and corporations would just fill the power vacuum.

But we all know who funds the Libertarian party anyway - corporations or billionaires (who own corporations).

Re: Using SimCity to diagnose my home town's traffic problem

#104

Post by n3rdy » Wed, Feb 20, 2013, 3:47 PM UTC

bdunbar wrote: post #93

guelo wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WTF. Libertarianism is like some grumpy religion, people are always trying to bring it up even when it doesn't fit. And it's so wrong about how the real world works. If a community doesn't have a school the first thing that normally happens is they form a government and elect a school board to figure how to build and fund it. Same with a fire department, even with volunteers there are a lot of expenses that need to b…

"What these government-haters" Hi. libertarian here. I don't hate government. Government is probably a necessary evil. I hate obnoxious, inefficient, bug-ridden, corrupt, expensive, government. I hate government that says one thing to get elected and then promptly does another. I hate government that ostensibly is an extension of the will of the people and then acts against their expressed wishes. But I'm not grumpy…

Hi. Anarchist here, I do hate government. Government in my opinion is an unnecessary tragedy that has befallen humanity and murdered close to 1 billion people.

This is by far the most intelligent community I have come across in all my internet travels, and if there is any group of people who can think of a way for society to run peacefully, it is this community.

Any problem we have as a society that people currently point to government as a solution, can be solved without resorting to threatening everyone with police action.

Re: Using SimCity to diagnose my home town's traffic problem

#105

Post by elliottkember » Wed, Feb 20, 2013, 3:58 PM UTC

UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #103

bdunbar wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I may have skipped over some steps in my thinking. But yes, a small government with few to little power is what we need.

Yes, because big business doesn't have enough power yet already. That's who would step in. You would reduce the size of government and corporations would just fill the power vacuum. But we all know who funds the Libertarian party anyway - corporations or billionaires (who own corporations).

While I have no issues with these arguments or their intent, I feel like this is not the forum for such a discussion. There are much better venues for political discourse than HN - let's keep it about tech.

Re: Using SimCity to diagnose my home town's traffic problem

#106

Post by n3rdy » Wed, Feb 20, 2013, 3:59 PM UTC

UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #103

bdunbar wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I may have skipped over some steps in my thinking. But yes, a small government with few to little power is what we need.

Yes, because big business doesn't have enough power yet already. That's who would step in. You would reduce the size of government and corporations would just fill the power vacuum. But we all know who funds the Libertarian party anyway - corporations or billionaires (who own corporations).

> Yes, because big business doesn't have enough power yet already. > That's who would step in. You would reduce the size of government and corporations would just fill the power vacuum.

Because that hasn't happened already, even with a huge government.

> But we all know who funds the Libertarian party anyway - corporations or billionaires (who own corporations).

Corporations are actually government entities. One of those handy things that help businesses get big enough to manipulate governments.

A business doesn't just apply as a corporation for tax benefits, it also does so for the limited liability. So when they unwittingly contaminate your property, or accidentally poison you with rancid meat, the owner of the corporation won't have to sell their house to settle the lawsuits that follow their companies negligence.

So that government you think protects you from big business, passes the risks that business owner would normally have to take upon himself, onto you.

Re: Using SimCity to diagnose my home town's traffic problem

#107

Post by chrisbennet » Wed, Feb 20, 2013, 4:11 PM UTC

n3rdy wrote: post #104

bdunbar wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"What these government-haters" Hi. libertarian here. I don't hate government. Government is probably a necessary evil. I hate obnoxious, inefficient, bug-ridden, corrupt, expensive, government. I hate government that says one thing to get elected and then promptly does another. I hate government that ostensibly is an extension of the will of the people and then acts against their expressed wishes. But I'm not grumpy…

Hi. Anarchist here, I do hate government. Government in my opinion is an unnecessary tragedy that has befallen humanity and murdered close to 1 billion people. This is by far the most intelligent community I have come across in all my internet travels, and if there is any group of people who can think of a way for society to run peacefully, it is this community. Any problem we have as a society that people currently…

It worked in that utopia called Somalia after all. :-)

Re: Using SimCity to diagnose my home town's traffic problem

#108

Post by n3rdy » Wed, Feb 20, 2013, 4:14 PM UTC

guelo wrote: post #89

monkeypizza wrote: post #77

I love simcity, but recently played it and noticed it is really paternalistic. The attitude towards development it has is very much like China - everything is controlled and all land is owned by the government, and the government's job is to manage zoning, roads, schools, education, in order to make people happy. Nobody actually has any property rights - even trees don't grow without government planting efforts. Farm…

WTF. Libertarianism is like some grumpy religion, people are always trying to bring it up even when it doesn't fit. And it's so wrong about how the real world works. If a community doesn't have a school the first thing that normally happens is they form a government and elect a school board to figure how to build and fund it. Same with a fire department, even with volunteers there are a lot of expenses that need to b…

> What these government-haters don't understand is that government IS the community. It's how a community comes together to get things done.

Government is the monopoly on force used to enforce a communities policies.

You do not need to threaten people with violence to get things done.

If you are not threatening people with violence to get things done, if all participation is voluntary, then you are not using a government to get things done.

Re: Using SimCity to diagnose my home town's traffic problem

#109

Post by n3rdy » Wed, Feb 20, 2013, 4:24 PM UTC

chrisbennet wrote: post #107

n3rdy wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi. Anarchist here, I do hate government. Government in my opinion is an unnecessary tragedy that has befallen humanity and murdered close to 1 billion people. This is by far the most intelligent community I have come across in all my internet travels, and if there is any group of people who can think of a way for society to run peacefully, it is this community. Any problem we have as a society that people currently…

It worked in that utopia called Somalia after all. :-)

The non-sharia controlled parts have been better off than they were with their previous government. Their air travel industry is even profitable, more than we can say.

I'd say that's a lot more than you could ask for considering the exploitation of the region.

Re: Using SimCity to diagnose my home town's traffic problem

#110

Post by Fargren » Wed, Feb 20, 2013, 5:32 PM UTC

Evbn wrote: post #68

dm2 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe they are trying to teach kids things like debt to income , budget management, loan basics, and concepts like "there is no redo in real life" rather than basing everything on a kill/death ratio. You can easily develop a way to rank how productive, profitable, clean, and happy cities in a game like SimCity are. If you weigh these factors and provide a number then you have a ranking. Maybe global leaderboard was a…

That's completely the opposite of why games exist. If I didn't want a chance at forgiveness, I would just play real life.

There a lot of great, fun games with no redo. The entire concept of a roguelike is based on death being permanent and having to start over. FTL, Spellunky, The Binding of Isaac and Dungeons of Dredmor are all recent examples of games that embrace this unforgiving play-style.

However, I think forcing this into Sim City is just a bad idea, and contrary to my expectations from such a game.