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What can Tata's Nano ($2500 car) teach Detroit?

businessweek.com

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Re: What can Tata's Nano ($2500 car) teach Detroit?

#11

Post by jrockway »

jwilliams wrote: post #10
goodkarma wrote: post #4

America's Big 3 automakers have been lazy and complacent for years. They haven't made substantial increases in fuel efficiency in decades, and preferred to sue California to fight the zero-emission vehicle law rather than sell more electric cars. They take tons of handouts from the government (hydrogen research, hybrid research, bailout money, etc.) yet lose millions per day. Bottom line: they don't deserve to be in…

Your two statements seem at odds - You want less pollution, but you're happy for hordes of people to buy a new, polluting car - especially one which doesn't have the same emission standards. e.g. It's catalytic converter isn't nearly as efficient as western cars. Maybe we should be getting out of cars altogether and invest in the public transport system.

Maybe we should be getting out of cars altogether and invest in the public transport system.

Agreed. We need to start treating cars like other harmful habits, like smoking and gambling, and tax the hell out of them. We also need to eliminate fares on our public transportation systems. (Nobody's going to take the bus a few blocks to the store when it costs $2.25. But I bet they'll take it when they can just get on for free.)

Anyway, I bet that this will not happen in my lifetime.

Re: What can Tata's Nano ($2500 car) teach Detroit?

#12

Post by electromagnetic »

goodkarma wrote: post #4

America's Big 3 automakers have been lazy and complacent for years. They haven't made substantial increases in fuel efficiency in decades, and preferred to sue California to fight the zero-emission vehicle law rather than sell more electric cars. They take tons of handouts from the government (hydrogen research, hybrid research, bailout money, etc.) yet lose millions per day. Bottom line: they don't deserve to be in…

Actually I was surprised when I found out that Ford has actually made incredible increases in fuel efficiency, but they did it all before people started caring about fuel efficiency and they've never shook off the reputation of being a gas guzzler.

Let me put it this way, if Ford used the same amount of fuel (compared to other vehicle makers' vehicles) as 20 years ago then I don't think they would have lasted through the insane gas prices last summer.

Re: What can Tata's Nano ($2500 car) teach Detroit?

#13

Post by stcredzero »

jwilliams wrote: post #8
ivankirigin wrote: post #6

I've been told that the Indian middle class will prefer a regular car. But this certainly beats a scooter. I have a Vespa. I'd love a covered motorcycle. It could be electric, because I have no plans on going long distances. Solar panels on such a small vehicle might actually work quite well. They could unfold from the sides to take up the same area as the roof of a sedan.

I don't think that area (of solar panels) would be sufficient to generate any serious charge. Good sun in an ideal case is around 1kw/m2. Whereas, a scooter output will be around 10kw (?). So naturally depends on how much area you really want to invest in. But I'd say 1m2 would be the maximum for a fold-out on a scooter. With the losses, less ideal sun, the weight of the batteries and the solar panels - not sure this…

An engineer in Michigan did exactly what was just proposed:

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/04/don_dunkees_diy.php

I imagine that in southern California or Arizona, the thing would get substantially more than a 1/2 charge during the day.

Depending on the battery chemistry, this could save a heck of a lot of battery life, even if it didn't provide enough to eliminate plugging in at night.

Re: What can Tata's Nano ($2500 car) teach Detroit?

#14

Post by anamax »

SingAlong wrote: post #7
mynameishere wrote: post #5

It's an India-only car. It would be a death trap on American roads, and so Detroit has really nothing to learn from them. Detroit always had well-staffed marketing departments to tell them what to do, and for the most part it worked. The problems were always elsewhere. It's just a liberal fantasy that Americans want caskets with wheels. 2500 dollars will get me a decent used car.

You should at the specs really. The last time I read its review during a local auto-showin my place, the middle class guys would probably go for a revised version of the good old Maruti-800 car which costs around $5000 approx and has the basic safety features that a car requires (and also A/C and other optionals). But Nano doesn't even have a front bumper. So as you said it's really just a casket on wheels that peopl…

> I'm not much into auto, but I guess there's a govt team that reviews cars manufactured in India.

Why would you think that India's safety standards would be the same as the US? Why would you think that they should be? (Americans and Indians have different amounts of "not car" risks. Spending money to make India's "car risks" the same as the US would not make much difference to the total risk in India and would use resources that could be used to reduce said total risks.)

Re: What can Tata's Nano ($2500 car) teach Detroit?

#15

Post by stcredzero »

brkumar wrote: post #3
brk wrote: post #2

Despite the question in the headline of this article, there is very little actionable advice. "Get closer to the customer" is about the best teaching the author can come up with. There has been a lot of talk about this $2500 car, but everything I've read (in articles with actual data) indicate that there is no way to sell the car for $2500 and cover the cost of raw materials plus assembly/shipping. This is even with…

As pointed by business week(via trak.in), the innovations made by Tata Nano are: 1. The car was built from ground up. 2. The supply chain was simplified by making the suppliers partners. 3. Shipping the whole car as kits for the downstream distributors to assemble, thus reducing several costs. 4. The key success factor for Tata Nano project was price. The price was fixed and everything else just worked around it. Agr…

Given Detroit's record, the lesson they might take is:

    We need to hire more lobbyists to work on those pesky safety regs

Re: What can Tata's Nano ($2500 car) teach Detroit?

#16

Post by electromagnetic »

jrockway wrote: post #11
jwilliams wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your two statements seem at odds - You want less pollution, but you're happy for hordes of people to buy a new, polluting car - especially one which doesn't have the same emission standards. e.g. It's catalytic converter isn't nearly as efficient as western cars. Maybe we should be getting out of cars altogether and invest in the public transport system.

Maybe we should be getting out of cars altogether and invest in the public transport system. Agreed. We need to start treating cars like other harmful habits, like smoking and gambling, and tax the hell out of them. We also need to eliminate fares on our public transportation systems. (Nobody's going to take the bus a few blocks to the store when it costs $2.25. But I bet they'll take it when they can just get on for…

Actually here in Ontario I've seen plenty of people take the bus for $2.75, but then minimum wage is being increased this year to near $10 an hour and that includes tip-paying and commissioned jobs.

There's also considerable discounts. When you pay to get on the bus you get a transfer, which stays valid for a minimum of 90 minutes. Also the bus passes are considerably well priced if you use the bus more than 10 times in a week. So if you're using it to get to and from work and then also to do all your grocery shopping and such, it can get down to as little as $0.50 a trip. Supposedly they're also including tax credits for using it, although they don't seem to want to publish the info on how.

Re: What can Tata's Nano ($2500 car) teach Detroit?

#17

Post by stcredzero »

jrockway wrote: post #11
jwilliams wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your two statements seem at odds - You want less pollution, but you're happy for hordes of people to buy a new, polluting car - especially one which doesn't have the same emission standards. e.g. It's catalytic converter isn't nearly as efficient as western cars. Maybe we should be getting out of cars altogether and invest in the public transport system.

Maybe we should be getting out of cars altogether and invest in the public transport system. Agreed. We need to start treating cars like other harmful habits, like smoking and gambling, and tax the hell out of them. We also need to eliminate fares on our public transportation systems. (Nobody's going to take the bus a few blocks to the store when it costs $2.25. But I bet they'll take it when they can just get on for…

There's a "downtown zone" in Minneapolis, where bus travel just costs $0.50. People will definitely take the bus a few blocks to shop at Target for $0.50 each way. I do it and I observe lots of others doing it. (The markup in the local corner stores definitely makes it worth it!)

Re: What can Tata's Nano ($2500 car) teach Detroit?

#18

Post by aagnihot »

SingAlong wrote: post #7
mynameishere wrote: post #5

It's an India-only car. It would be a death trap on American roads, and so Detroit has really nothing to learn from them. Detroit always had well-staffed marketing departments to tell them what to do, and for the most part it worked. The problems were always elsewhere. It's just a liberal fantasy that Americans want caskets with wheels. 2500 dollars will get me a decent used car.

You should at the specs really. The last time I read its review during a local auto-showin my place, the middle class guys would probably go for a revised version of the good old Maruti-800 car which costs around $5000 approx and has the basic safety features that a car requires (and also A/C and other optionals). But Nano doesn't even have a front bumper. So as you said it's really just a casket on wheels that peopl…

"Nano" is not meant to compete with Toyota/Honda/GM. Tata Nano offers an alternative to 2-wheeler owners to own a car. Also, Nano is good candidate to replace India's 3-wheeler auto-rickshaws. India's emission norms are based on euro-emission norms. So they are no as lenient as perceived. Moreover, This car is meant to be used for intra-city transport. The speed here is around 30-50km/hr. At such a speed, it is less likely to have fatal accidents. What must be appreciated is Ratan Tata's ambitious vision and excellent execution by Tata Motors to achieve their goal.

Re: What can Tata's Nano ($2500 car) teach Detroit?

#19

Post by ivankirigin »

jwilliams wrote: post #8
ivankirigin wrote: post #6

I've been told that the Indian middle class will prefer a regular car. But this certainly beats a scooter. I have a Vespa. I'd love a covered motorcycle. It could be electric, because I have no plans on going long distances. Solar panels on such a small vehicle might actually work quite well. They could unfold from the sides to take up the same area as the roof of a sedan.

I don't think that area (of solar panels) would be sufficient to generate any serious charge. Good sun in an ideal case is around 1kw/m2. Whereas, a scooter output will be around 10kw (?). So naturally depends on how much area you really want to invest in. But I'd say 1m2 would be the maximum for a fold-out on a scooter. With the losses, less ideal sun, the weight of the batteries and the solar panels - not sure this…

The model would be quick trips, rarely more than 30 minutes. Parking for the day in a lot at work, for example, would be more than enough to get home.

I'd also want a plug-in option for nighttime charging.

I think 1m2 is a very low estimate. Keep in mind I'm describing a covered bike.

I live in Massachusetts, where it should be a crime to buy solar panels, given the dearth of sun. If I lived in SoCal, Nevada, or Arizona, this project would be very workable.

Re: What can Tata's Nano ($2500 car) teach Detroit?

#20

Post by jwilliams »

stcredzero wrote: post #13
jwilliams wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that area (of solar panels) would be sufficient to generate any serious charge. Good sun in an ideal case is around 1kw/m2. Whereas, a scooter output will be around 10kw (?). So naturally depends on how much area you really want to invest in. But I'd say 1m2 would be the maximum for a fold-out on a scooter. With the losses, less ideal sun, the weight of the batteries and the solar panels - not sure this…

An engineer in Michigan did exactly what was just proposed: http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/04/don_dunkees_diy.php I imagine that in southern California or Arizona, the thing would get substantially more than a 1/2 charge during the day. Depending on the battery chemistry, this could save a heck of a lot of battery life, even if it didn't provide enough to eliminate plugging in at night.

1/2 charge on a summer's day. So less if it's cloudy and less if it's winter. Maybe a lot less, maybe 40%.

A 1/2 charge seems to be about 1.2kwh. The EVT is rated at 1.5kw. So you might get an hour out of that. Anything more powerful (a typical scooter will be 5-10kw) and you're taking 20,30 minutes a day - with ideal sun.

So, if anything, my previous math was conservative.

Anyway - I'm not disagreeing with the principle - just saying I think there are better ways of going about it... I'd say, just stick with the plug-in and put the solar panels on your house.

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