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Microsoft sides with Oracle against Google in Java appeal

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Re: Microsoft sides with Oracle against Google in Java appeal

#11

Post by azakai »

OGinparadise wrote: post #7
callumjones wrote: post #5

Does Microsoft actually have a vested interest specifically in the use of Java by Google, such as being upset that Google had free use of the Java APIs while itself was scolded for implementing their own JVM? Or is it basically "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"?

Guessing only: MS is a software company so they'd want to make it harder for others to copy (like whatever Google supposedly copied from java.) This, of course, is business for all involved, nothing personal.

> Guessing only: MS is a software company so they'd want to make it harder for others to copy (like whatever Google supposedly copied from java.)

The guess can be a little more specific: Microsoft saw what the verdict said about Java and was concerned for what it meant for C#. Oracle having less control over Java because languages are not copyrightable means Microsoft has less control over C#.

C# is important to Microsoft, so it's going to make an effort to maintain full control over it.

Which would be bad for all of us should Oracle and Microsoft prevail. Java and C# are widely-used, and the kind of control Oracle and Microsoft want over them is excessive.

Re: Microsoft sides with Oracle against Google in Java appeal

#13

Post by zmmmmm »

callumjones wrote: post #5

Does Microsoft actually have a vested interest specifically in the use of Java by Google, such as being upset that Google had free use of the Java APIs while itself was scolded for implementing their own JVM? Or is it basically "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"?

Microsoft's interest lately is to conduct a kind psyops campaign against Google. They seem to have identified that a huge problem for them is that people really like Google a lot. So basically their strategy is to throw mud at Google until people don't trust them or like them any more. So I would say this fits into their campaign very neatly - if they can portray Google as stealing technology from other companies then they can keep piecing together this picture of "bad Google" that they want everyone to see.

Re: Microsoft sides with Oracle against Google in Java appeal

#14

Post by slurry »

camus wrote: post #12

I guess they dont understand why they lost in court with Sun and why Google did not with Oracle. And an android legal "takedown" would be very beneficial to MSFT ,since they try to sell phoneOS too.

Microsoft had licensed Java code under a trade agreement and was found to have violated the terms of that trade agreement.

Google had not licensed Java code, and was sued under patent law. Totally different kind of case.

Re: Microsoft sides with Oracle against Google in Java appeal

#15

Post by mtgx »

camus wrote: post #12

I guess they dont understand why they lost in court with Sun and why Google did not with Oracle. And an android legal "takedown" would be very beneficial to MSFT ,since they try to sell phoneOS too.

I find it pretty sad that Microsoft are lowering themselves to trying to kill competition through lawsuits, lobbying for anti-trust, and paying for hate and FUD campaigns against them lately. On the other hand all this stuff is not exactly strange to Microsoft. Just continuing the legacy.

Re: Microsoft sides with Oracle against Google in Java appeal

#16

Post by [deleted] »

azakai wrote: post #11
OGinparadise wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guessing only: MS is a software company so they'd want to make it harder for others to copy (like whatever Google supposedly copied from java.) This, of course, is business for all involved, nothing personal.

> Guessing only: MS is a software company so they'd want to make it harder for others to copy (like whatever Google supposedly copied from java.) The guess can be a little more specific: Microsoft saw what the verdict said about Java and was concerned for what it meant for C#. Oracle having less control over Java because languages are not copyrightable means Microsoft has less control over C#. C# is important to Micr…

[deleted]

Re: Microsoft sides with Oracle against Google in Java appeal

#17

Post by cromwellian »

chii wrote: post #9
stanleydrew wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's a little strange, since Google is also a software company.

Google is not a software company. Google is an advertising company that uses (massively intelligent) software.

This is a common refrain, sometimes used as a slight, as if Google is just another Don Draper firm, that just happens to have some tech in its portfolio.

As a rank-and-file Googler, my personal experience is that most Google engineers perceive that we are a technology company and advertising is often off in the edges of their mind. Yes, advertising is the majority revenue product, but like many startups, the people working on moonshots are not thinking about the business model, they are thinking about the problem to be solved. When most people go work on a 20% project, some of which become top Google services, they don't start out thinking, for example, "How can I increase ad revenue by making voice recognition better."

Re: Microsoft sides with Oracle against Google in Java appeal

#18

Post by z3phyr »

If anytime I have to use a 'managed' language, I go for python and haskell. Though, most of the time, I work on my video game renderer engine in evergreen C/C++ , I am quite satisfied and productive :)

There is no use of C#, Java or VB for my work, and for good reasons ;)

Re: Microsoft sides with Oracle against Google in Java appeal

#19

Post by kvb »

azakai wrote: post #11
OGinparadise wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guessing only: MS is a software company so they'd want to make it harder for others to copy (like whatever Google supposedly copied from java.) This, of course, is business for all involved, nothing personal.

> Guessing only: MS is a software company so they'd want to make it harder for others to copy (like whatever Google supposedly copied from java.) The guess can be a little more specific: Microsoft saw what the verdict said about Java and was concerned for what it meant for C#. Oracle having less control over Java because languages are not copyrightable means Microsoft has less control over C#. C# is important to Micr…

Actually, I think that there are both benefits and costs to tightly controlled languages, and it's not clear at all that the costs outweigh the benefits. Indeed, arguably C#'s great progress in the last decade compared to Java is due in large part to Microsoft's hegemony as opposed to Java's community process.

Regardless, as I understand it (though IANAL) Oracle's copyright argument was over Android's reuse of Java's APIs (including signatures and documentation), not over the Java language itself. Basically they claimed that just like a cookbook is subject to copyright even though an individual recipe may not be, so should the collected Java API be even though individual method signatures wouldn't be.

Re: Microsoft sides with Oracle against Google in Java appeal

#20

Post by kvb »

zmmmmm wrote: post #13
callumjones wrote: post #5

Does Microsoft actually have a vested interest specifically in the use of Java by Google, such as being upset that Google had free use of the Java APIs while itself was scolded for implementing their own JVM? Or is it basically "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"?

Microsoft's interest lately is to conduct a kind psyops campaign against Google. They seem to have identified that a huge problem for them is that people really like Google a lot . So basically their strategy is to throw mud at Google until people don't trust them or like them any more. So I would say this fits into their campaign very neatly - if they can portray Google as stealing technology from other companies th…

I doubt that their amicus briefs are driven by PR considerations as opposed to actual business concerns. How does a court filing that most of the public will never see help them shift public perceptions of Google?
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