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A peek into the curious world of HDMI copy protection

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Re: A peek into the curious world of HDMI copy protection

#21

Post by martinced »

You've gat to love the comment on TFA saying something like: "It doesn't matter that it can be broken by experienced crackers, it's just to keep the honest man honest".

That is so wrong: all it takes is that each one of the warez group builds one like this and then they can rip anything "big media" produces and then put it on torrent or underground movie-sharing networks.

(oh the memories taking my bycicle when I was 12 to meet people in parking lots to trade 5 1/4" and 3 1/2" floppy disks ; )

Re: A peek into the curious world of HDMI copy protection

#23

Post by Nursie »

jfb wrote: post #18
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still can't understand why they even bother. The problem with software-based DRM is that you can always, in the worst case, run the whole thing in a virtual machine and capture the output the software thinks is going to a display but is really going to a video encoder. The problem with hardware-based DRM is that you have a hundred million devices in service when a vulnerability is discovered. Then you can't even se…

DRM is popular not because it makes the possible impossible (not even the least technical people at the studios think this), but because it makes copying more expensive . As such, it's one leg of the "anti-piracy" stool, along with spurious lawsuits, punitive licensing deals, &c. You (and I) might think the whole think is a donkey circus that just ends up making things worse, but it's important to keep in mind that t…

Except beyond a certain point it doesn't make it more expensive. Crack ROT13 or BD+ or AACS or whatever and what you have at the end is the plaintext, that then gets distributed around.

It makes it harder for a few people that crack it for fun, profit, kudos, whatever it is, but then it's exactly the same.

There is a reason for it, but mostly the reason is pretty misguided, and it absolutely does make the experience of the paying customer worse than that of the pirate.

Re: A peek into the curious world of HDMI copy protection

#24

Post by josephlord »

Yes it's completely broken but its rarely the best point of attack anyway. Dealing with uncompressed video input is hassle and needs significant hardware compared to a way to capture the compressed data from a Blu-ray. Plus there is a generational compression loss of quality.

Re: A peek into the curious world of HDMI copy protection

#25

Post by thrownaway2424 »

This garbage is definitely costing them sales. I bought a blu-ray player/receiver thingus and it wouldn't work with my Roku player because they could not negotiate mutually-acceptable encryption most of the time, resulting in solid green fields instead of movies. So instead of being happy and buying blu-ray discs, I just returned it and continue to not buy any of those.

Re: A peek into the curious world of HDMI copy protection

#26

Post by bediger4000 »

Daiz wrote: post #6

Why HDCP is still used despite being utterly broken is simply the fact that it gives media corporations 'control'. You know those anti-circumvention laws for DRM? Yeah. Even DVDs still ship with CSS for this reason - when RealNetworks released RealDVD, their DVD ripping program (which wasn't even particularly good or useful, as it produced Real Media files with Real's own DRM included ), they were sued by DVD Copy Co…

I think you're correct about 'control', but that begs a question:

Why is control that important? It's not control for the sake of generating money, they'd probably make more money, in a bigger industry, if they didn't exert such fine-grained control. Is it that much fun to dictate popular culture, or is something else going on behind the scenes, other than hookers and blow?

Re: A peek into the curious world of HDMI copy protection

#27

Post by dbcooper »

Now there is also the Cinavia analogue audio watermarking system for protecting content, which seems to be quite robust.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinavia

Slysoft intends to release a product that negates it, but I am unaware of any success so far. There have been work-arounds for the PS3 though.

The doom9 forum thread can be a good place to read about it.

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=155777

Re: A peek into the curious world of HDMI copy protection

#28

Post by contingencies »

Even more curious (but equally broken) are the myriad DRM protocols that operate between consumer devices across the network. The main reason DRM is used in these scenarios is that a lot of the leading content owners (mostly Hollywood) make it a requirement before releasing their content digitally. Having seen the reference source code for some of them, I can tell you that we have nothing to fear, and that the claims each new system makes regarding innovation are farcical.

Some of these protocols currently in use include Coral, OMA, OMA2, Windows Media 9, Playready, Marlin, Widevine, etc.

Also, HDCP is spiritually the successor to Macrovision Analog Protection System (APS) on videotapes. For more information on where this is headed at present (dead as the whole DRM area is), see also DTCP+, HDCP's latest content protection specification.

PS. Adam, if you read this, nice meeting you in Bangkok a few years back. I am sort of based there now, just back in China for a spell.

Re: A peek into the curious world of HDMI copy protection

#29

Post by daeken »

dbcooper wrote: post #27

Now there is also the Cinavia analogue audio watermarking system for protecting content, which seems to be quite robust. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinavia Slysoft intends to release a product that negates it, but I am unaware of any success so far. There have been work-arounds for the PS3 though. The doom9 forum thread can be a good place to read about it. http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=155777

Cinavia has been in my sights for a while. Every once in a while, I end up rereading the main patent and doing research, and it looks like a formidable challenger. I'd really like to take it on, if I ever had free time; it's been a while since I've done DRM reversing, and it's ridiculously well designed, thus fun.

Re: A peek into the curious world of HDMI copy protection

#30

Post by cynicalkane »

koko775 wrote: post #20
jfb wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DRM is popular not because it makes the possible impossible (not even the least technical people at the studios think this), but because it makes copying more expensive . As such, it's one leg of the "anti-piracy" stool, along with spurious lawsuits, punitive licensing deals, &c. You (and I) might think the whole think is a donkey circus that just ends up making things worse, but it's important to keep in mind that t…

> DRM is popular not because it makes the possible impossible (not even the least technical people at the studios think this), but because it makes copying more expensive No, it exists because it's usually a contractual obligation for licensing the content for distribution to at least make a token effort to protect content. That's really the biggest reason. Source: I work at an entertainment company

The viewpoint from your corner of the world is wrong. The viewpoint from my corner is right. Of course both can't possibly be part of the whole story at the same time, that's ridiculous.

Source: I work in my corner.

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