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Abandoning bottom-posting

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Re: Abandoning bottom-posting

#31

Post by pseut »

ScottBurson wrote: post #26
viraptor wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As far as I'm concerned, a top-poster is either a narcissist or very inexperienced in Internet communications. Or both. I bet you've not been exposed to many corporate email chains. Top-posting makes a lot of sense there. I often get copied on an email chains from which only the last part affects me. For example it will be a long discussion about some task and then I'll get copied because I'm the person who does X…

There's another reason bottom- (or interspersed) posting does not work well in corporate email chains: Outlook flatly doesn't support it. Quoted text in a reply is not indented by default. The replier has to do extra work to put their reply in a different font or color so it's clear what's quoted text and what's new text.

Smartphones too. I top-post from my iPhone, bottom-post everywhere else.

Re: Abandoning bottom-posting

#32

Post by tdavis »

shrug I will always bottom-post when context matters and always top-post when I expect the reader to know the context implicitly. And I will never read an email chain that requires me to start from the bottom and work my way up.

Re: Abandoning bottom-posting

#33

Post by tmhedberg »

mattmanser wrote: post #27
tmhedberg wrote: post #14

Bottom-posting, due to its falling out of favor in the mainstream, has become a shibboleth that signifies a certain degree of competence with technology and Internet communication in general. While I'd certainly prefer it if everyone I corresponded with followed proper quoting etiquette, I have to say that it's also fairly convenient to glance at an email message and immediately be able to infer with reasonable confi…

Seriously? I have come to associate this particular style as meaning the emailer/poster is going to be an unhelpful, holier than thou, pedantic ass-hole. It's a shibboleth without doubt, but not for the clique you think. > I was walking down the street Better known as a sidewalk > when I had a revelation Oh what pray tell? >that not many people actually use NoSQL There's a distinction between idiots and people you fa…

I agree that inline replies, when taken to the extreme that you illustrate, are more asinine than they are useful. Personally, I tend to reply to a paragraph or two at a time, a style which doesn't, in my opinion, have the same "you idiot" rhetorical feel. It's just easier to read and understand than a giant block of text responding to several unrelated points, followed by a giant untrimmed quote. Not all bottom posting/inline quoting is of the holier-than-thou nature. :)

Re: Abandoning bottom-posting

#34

Post by dredmorbius »

ScottBurson wrote: post #26
viraptor wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As far as I'm concerned, a top-poster is either a narcissist or very inexperienced in Internet communications. Or both. I bet you've not been exposed to many corporate email chains. Top-posting makes a lot of sense there. I often get copied on an email chains from which only the last part affects me. For example it will be a long discussion about some task and then I'll get copied because I'm the person who does X…

There's another reason bottom- (or interspersed) posting does not work well in corporate email chains: Outlook flatly doesn't support it. Quoted text in a reply is not indented by default. The replier has to do extra work to put their reply in a different font or color so it's clear what's quoted text and what's new text.

Which utterly breaks for those who read the thread on a text-only mailer (e.g.: mutt).

Re: Abandoning bottom-posting

#35

Post by tmhedberg »

stock_toaster wrote: post #23
tmhedberg wrote: post #14

Bottom-posting, due to its falling out of favor in the mainstream, has become a shibboleth that signifies a certain degree of competence with technology and Internet communication in general. While I'd certainly prefer it if everyone I corresponded with followed proper quoting etiquette, I have to say that it's also fairly convenient to glance at an email message and immediately be able to infer with reasonable confi…

> Bottom-posting, due to its falling out of favor in the mainstream, has become a shibboleth that signifies a certain degree of competence with technology and Internet communication in general. I don't find this true at all . I get quite the mix of response styles from people of all walks of 'techno competency' -- sometimes a MUA defaults, especially mobile ones. As mentioned elsewhere in the comments, in business se…

It is only one data point among many, I admit, and it would be unfair to characterize someone's expertise based solely on their choice of email quoting style. But in my (completely anecdotal) experience, there is more often than not a correlation between the two. Maybe it's just the email discussion lists that I frequent, where bottom posting tends to be the norm, and top-posted messages mostly come from people who could have answered their own question had they bothered to spend 30 seconds on Google before going to the mailing list.

Re: Abandoning bottom-posting

#36

Post by FixThisMess »

InclinedPlane wrote: post #13

The secret answer is: this is bike-shedding, worry about more important things. Most of the time only the original content in a message will be read, so top-posting is probably preferred. Occasionally it will be more suitable to form a point-by-point reply to another post, in which case it's better to reply inline. Ah, but I hear you asking "but what about when new people get added to a thread or a thread is complex…

"Bike-shedding"? WTF?

Top-posting is lazy, rude, and ignorant. And sadly it's encouraged by defective clients like Apple Mail.

The "folding" of already seen content indicates that it shouldn't be there in the first place, and threading reinforces this.

Re: Abandoning bottom-posting

#37

Post by FixThisMess »

mattmanser wrote: post #27
tmhedberg wrote: post #14

Bottom-posting, due to its falling out of favor in the mainstream, has become a shibboleth that signifies a certain degree of competence with technology and Internet communication in general. While I'd certainly prefer it if everyone I corresponded with followed proper quoting etiquette, I have to say that it's also fairly convenient to glance at an email message and immediately be able to infer with reasonable confi…

Seriously? I have come to associate this particular style as meaning the emailer/poster is going to be an unhelpful, holier than thou, pedantic ass-hole. It's a shibboleth without doubt, but not for the clique you think. > I was walking down the street Better known as a sidewalk > when I had a revelation Oh what pray tell? >that not many people actually use NoSQL There's a distinction between idiots and people you fa…

Yawn. More infantile railing against actually LEARNING something. How DARE anyone point out anything that's wrong, rude, or ignorant.

Get someone to change your diaper.

Re: Abandoning bottom-posting

#38

Post by stock_toaster »

tmhedberg wrote: post #35
stock_toaster wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bottom-posting, due to its falling out of favor in the mainstream, has become a shibboleth that signifies a certain degree of competence with technology and Internet communication in general. I don't find this true at all . I get quite the mix of response styles from people of all walks of 'techno competency' -- sometimes a MUA defaults, especially mobile ones. As mentioned elsewhere in the comments, in business se…

It is only one data point among many, I admit, and it would be unfair to characterize someone's expertise based solely on their choice of email quoting style. But in my (completely anecdotal) experience, there is more often than not a correlation between the two. Maybe it's just the email discussion lists that I frequent, where bottom posting tends to be the norm, and top-posted messages mostly come from people who c…

Thanks for the background. In a community specific setting, it may well be a useful indicator. I assumed you had meant it broadly. I hypothesize that it would be a far less useful distinguishing characteristic in that case.

Re: Abandoning bottom-posting

#39

Post by InclinedPlane »

laureny wrote: post #25
tmhedberg wrote: post #14

Bottom-posting, due to its falling out of favor in the mainstream, has become a shibboleth that signifies a certain degree of competence with technology and Internet communication in general. While I'd certainly prefer it if everyone I corresponded with followed proper quoting etiquette, I have to say that it's also fairly convenient to glance at an email message and immediately be able to infer with reasonable confi…

> it's also fairly convenient to glance at an email message and immediately be able to infer with reasonable confidence what level of expertise to expect from the stranger on the other end You are confusing "level of expertise" with "number of years on the Internet". Knowing the Internet seniority of the person you are responding to is an unremarkable data point in all but arcane conversations about the Internet itse…

Yup. Just because you're old and crotchety and refuse to change your ways doesn't mean you are more experienced or right.

I am sympathetic, I used to read all my email through a terminal client, and I fought the bottom-posting good fight on usenet back in the day. But those norms aren't today's norms. It's a different world and those arguments don't hold the force they used to. It's time to move on. If you insist on being cranky and uncompromising about something try picking something that actually matters, there are lots of choices.

Re: Abandoning bottom-posting

#40

Post by InclinedPlane »

dredmorbius wrote: post #34
ScottBurson wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's another reason bottom- (or interspersed) posting does not work well in corporate email chains: Outlook flatly doesn't support it. Quoted text in a reply is not indented by default. The replier has to do extra work to put their reply in a different font or color so it's clear what's quoted text and what's new text.

Which utterly breaks for those who read the thread on a text-only mailer (e.g.: mutt).

"Doc, it hurts when I go like this."

"Then stop going like that."

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