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Death in Singapore

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Re: Death in Singapore

#231

Post by asdkl234890 »

jacoblyles wrote: post #214
api wrote: post #143

I'm amazed at how many elite-school tech types idolize Singapore for some strange reason. I've heard a number of gushing recommendations for the place from the MIT/Harvard set. I personally see it as some kind of horrible sci-fi "Stepford Wives" "smile or die" dystopia... like a yuppie latte-sipping upscale version of North Korea. It makes me thankful for ghettoes and dirt and bums, given the alternative.

I'm amazed at how many people romanticize ghettoes, dirt, and bums. Breaking and entering, rape, murder, homelessness, and human feces on the street are pretty common in areas of San Francisco. They aren't common in Singapore. I consider that a win for Singapore. I would love for a young Lee Kwan Yew to run San Francisco for a year or ten. People change their minds when it happens to them . It feels fine to romantici…

Just because you don't romanticize Singapore, does not mean you do romanticize San Francisco. I personally only romanticize Switzerland.

(This is turning into Libertarian bingo.)

Re: Death in Singapore

#232

Post by mc32 »

redthrowaway wrote: post #227
jacoblyles wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My price for listening to communist apologists is that they explain how their version of the theory will avoid the millions of deaths that happened in Ukraine, China, and Cambodia, among others. 20th century communism was a true horror. You have your work cut out for you. I consider it an indictment of the modern academy that the gross crimes of communism are constantly deemphasized and excused.

Those crimes weren't committed by communist states, but by totalitarian dictatorships. The true challenge for the communist is to explain how they would create a communist state without having it fall to dictatorship, as every single country it's been tried in has.

I don't know. I mean, in theory those that call themselves communists and act as flagbearers of communism would be communists. Just like those which call themselves capitalists and act like capitalists are capitalists whether or not that deviates from "pure, theoretical {communism|capitalism}". It's a distinction without a difference, in practice. It's like saying, well, priests who molested aren't really priests because priests aren't supposed to do that, according to any doctrine.

Re: Death in Singapore

#233

Post by jacoblyles »

mc32 wrote: post #232
redthrowaway wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those crimes weren't committed by communist states, but by totalitarian dictatorships. The true challenge for the communist is to explain how they would create a communist state without having it fall to dictatorship, as every single country it's been tried in has.

I don't know. I mean, in theory those that call themselves communists and act as flagbearers of communism would be communists. Just like those which call themselves capitalists and act like capitalists are capitalists whether or not that deviates from "pure, theoretical {communism|capitalism}". It's a distinction without a difference, in practice. It's like saying, well, priests who molested aren't really priests bec…

I'll gladly own up to the results of impure capitalism (e.g. the United States, Singapore, most of the West, especially the anglosphere) if web/academic communists own up to the results of impure Communism (e.g. the Soviet Union, North Korea, Cuba)

Re: Death in Singapore

#234

Post by venus »

jlgreco wrote: post #203
venus wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You exaggerate. It's not a slap on the wrist, no, but calling it torture is a very long stretch indeed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caning_in_Singapore#Medical_tre...

It is torture. It would be in clear violation of United Nations Convention Against Torture, but Singapore has not signed that. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3c9_1304013159 Tell you what, if you think that isn't torture, then you go get caned. If you can tell me it isn't torture afterwards, provided you are not in shock, then I'll take it all back. But if not, then I get to watch you attempt to cram your apologetics…

> Tell you what, if you think that isn't torture, then you go get caned

Yeah man. Why don't you say "Tell you what, if you think prison isn't inhumane, you go spend 25 years in prison"

Way to demand an unreasonable precondition to progress in an argument. Is there a name for this fallacy?

Anyway, that video is hard to watch, and I would be sympathetic to an appeal to reduce cane size and weight.

Re: Death in Singapore

#235

Post by lutusp »

venus wrote: post #234
jlgreco wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is torture. It would be in clear violation of United Nations Convention Against Torture, but Singapore has not signed that. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3c9_1304013159 Tell you what, if you think that isn't torture, then you go get caned. If you can tell me it isn't torture afterwards, provided you are not in shock, then I'll take it all back. But if not, then I get to watch you attempt to cram your apologetics…

> Tell you what, if you think that isn't torture, then you go get caned Yeah man. Why don't you say "Tell you what, if you think prison isn't inhumane, you go spend 25 years in prison" Way to demand an unreasonable precondition to progress in an argument. Is there a name for this fallacy? Anyway, that video is hard to watch, and I would be sympathetic to an appeal to reduce cane size and weight.

> Way to demand an unreasonable precondition to progress in an argument. Is there a name for this fallacy?

I don't know if it has an official name. I call it the "Jury Fallacy." The Jury Fallacy says that, to have the right to express an opinion or form a judgment about some behavior, you must have personally experienced, or taken part in, that behavior. Which would mean that, to serve on a jury in a murder trial, you must be a murderer. But it's neither true nor sensible -- to qualify for a jury, to be able to draw a conclusion, all you need is to be competent to evaluate evidence.

So ... the "Jury Fallacy."

Re: Death in Singapore

#236

Post by miked »

contingencies wrote: post #92
Matti wrote: post #81

Not the first death of that kind in Singapore: "Family suspects interference in David Widjaja case" http://sgforums.com/forums/3317/topics/363855 "However, it appeared the court process was intentionally directed to a conclusion of suicide despite evidence showing a strong possibility of murder, according to David's family and the verification team. "We have strong evidence that he was murdered but that fact was not…

Absolutely chilling. What are the odds of being hit by a car in Singapore? One would think that, given so few people have them and that there are so few roads large enough to speed down, with the culture being so conservative, drugs near-absent and surveillance omnipresent, that it would be rare indeed; further, it would be trivial to catch the perpetrator. Were they caught in this case? Not, I suppose. It feels as i…

>> It feels as if western state-assisted assassinations of civilians are becoming a more frequently documented reality

And when were they documented the first time? It's much more plausible to believe that you are paid by the Chinese government to spread that rumor than to believe what you've written.

Re: Death in Singapore

#237

Post by mhartl »

contingencies wrote: post #168
arbus wrote: post #122

I'm a Singaporean and have served for some time in the military( Compulsory National Service as well as a short stint as a regular) and I think that the comments below seem to misunderstand the level of control that the government has over speech, people and companies in Singapore. We have many restrictive laws here but they are very selectively enforced. As long as you stay away from "hot" topics such as direct crit…

Singaporeans: "We have high quality of life!" "We have relative freedom of speech!" "We are modern!" Rest of world: Singaporeans pay top dollar for tiny apartments, have no nature, no drugs (and thus little art), no real political freedom, are forced to military service (read: military brain washing on top of the social/education system serving) and self-censor routinely whilst claiming their government is really OK!…

have no nature

Have you been to Singapore? It wasn't nicknamed "The Garden City" for its skyscrapers.

Re: Death in Singapore

#238

Post by mhartl »

api wrote: post #143

I'm amazed at how many elite-school tech types idolize Singapore for some strange reason. I've heard a number of gushing recommendations for the place from the MIT/Harvard set. I personally see it as some kind of horrible sci-fi "Stepford Wives" "smile or die" dystopia... like a yuppie latte-sipping upscale version of North Korea. It makes me thankful for ghettoes and dirt and bums, given the alternative.

for some strange reason

Singapore is a thriving metropolis with negligible crime and essentially no graffiti, has the third-highest per-capita income in the world, and manages to govern four major ethnic groups without devolving into pogroms or race riots. Is it really so strange to idolize such a place?

Singapore does have the death penalty for a few too many things, I'll admit, but you're not likely to get the ax for carrying a little weed. (You might get caned, though.) It's also true that it has laws against homosexuality, but (as with the many US states that have anti-sodomy laws on the books) they're essentially never enforced. Singapore also has no meaningful democracy, but this is a feature, not a bug. (I'll fear the worst if the quasi-communist Workers' Party ever wrests control from the ruling People's Action Party.)

like a yuppie latte-sipping upscale version of North Korea

North Korea is a prison state with the 197th highest income per capita. Singapore lets you leave any time and allows you to become a permanent resident by paying a small fee (~$150) to start a corporation, which then hires you.

Singapore and North Korea are alike the way 18th century Prussia and 1930s Germany were alike: ruled, in effect, by a single individual. But Frederick the Great was no Hitler, and the Yews are no Kims. Do you really not see the difference between Lee Kuan Yew and Kim Il Sung, just because neither is Barack Obama?

I personally see it

Have you personally seen it? Spend an evening strolling around Marina Bay some time (don't miss the Hooters!) and see if it fills you with longing for ghettoes and dirt and bums—or for the famines and death marches of its putative Korean doppelgänger.

Re: Death in Singapore

#239

Post by jlgreco »

venus wrote: post #234
jlgreco wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is torture. It would be in clear violation of United Nations Convention Against Torture, but Singapore has not signed that. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3c9_1304013159 Tell you what, if you think that isn't torture, then you go get caned. If you can tell me it isn't torture afterwards, provided you are not in shock, then I'll take it all back. But if not, then I get to watch you attempt to cram your apologetics…

> Tell you what, if you think that isn't torture, then you go get caned Yeah man. Why don't you say "Tell you what, if you think prison isn't inhumane, you go spend 25 years in prison" Way to demand an unreasonable precondition to progress in an argument. Is there a name for this fallacy? Anyway, that video is hard to watch, and I would be sympathetic to an appeal to reduce cane size and weight.

What the hell is your definition of torture, if that doesn't fit it?

Re: Death in Singapore

#240

Post by arbus »

contingencies wrote: post #168
arbus wrote: post #122

I'm a Singaporean and have served for some time in the military( Compulsory National Service as well as a short stint as a regular) and I think that the comments below seem to misunderstand the level of control that the government has over speech, people and companies in Singapore. We have many restrictive laws here but they are very selectively enforced. As long as you stay away from "hot" topics such as direct crit…

Singaporeans: "We have high quality of life!" "We have relative freedom of speech!" "We are modern!" Rest of world: Singaporeans pay top dollar for tiny apartments, have no nature, no drugs (and thus little art), no real political freedom, are forced to military service (read: military brain washing on top of the social/education system serving) and self-censor routinely whilst claiming their government is really OK!…

Maybe I'm out of my scope in your points about nature or political freedom as I haven't really experienced life in other countries enough to comment but I would like to explain the military part a bit more.

True it is compulsory but I think that a great majority of the people who experience it are better off for it. Our country has the highest rate of millionaires(1 in 6) and the kids that come from these households are much better off for the work ethic, value of money and socialization that we instill in them. The training that they go through may not be as rigorous as those who go through full spectrum military training in other countries but it teaches them mental discipline and the ability to give and take orders(20% of each years' intake go on to become commanders) which I'm sure you would agree too many kids learn far too late in their lives. It also has the side effect of providing baseline physical fitness, allowing for a much healthier population in the long run.

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