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BBC demands DRM for HTML5

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Re: BBC demands DRM for HTML5

#101
post #91

Wow, Cory's article is totally over the top... as are some of the comments in this thread. Let's start with the facts. Here's the spec. It's called Encrypted Media Extensions (EME). https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/encrypted-med... The EME spec isn't that long, and the introduction has a nice diagram. Go check it out. The W3C spec does not put "DRM in browsers." It allows browsers to use "decryption mod…

> Wow, Cory's article is totally over the top... What makes you think it's over the top? We have a public-interest organization pushing DRM, a technology that is decidedly against the public interest. I'm surprised that this is upvoted to the top of the thread, when you haven't done anything except say "this is over the top" and given us a link that explains what DRM is---as if the DRM's detractors don't already know…

>Look, these media companies are looking to us for advice; We're doing both them an ourselves a disservice by continuing to sell them DRM snake oil.

Seems to be working out pretty well for Hulu/Netflix. Or is releasing your $100 million budget film DRM-Free onto the internet now profitable??

Re: BBC demands DRM for HTML5

#102

Wow, Cory's article is totally over the top... as are some of the comments in this thread. Let's start with the facts. Here's the spec. It's called Encrypted Media Extensions (EME). https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/encrypted-med... The EME spec isn't that long, and the introduction has a nice diagram. Go check it out. The W3C spec does not put "DRM in browsers." It allows browsers to use "decryption mod…

A few question about the EME proposal:

> BTW, open source browsers can easily implement this spec since it doesn't require the browser to implement a "decryption module" themselves.

Does this mean, that the 'decryption module' is necessary closed source?

And from the spec:

>4.1 "Secure proof of key release must necessarily involve the CDM due to the relative ease with which scripts may be modified. The CDM must provide a message asserting, in a CDM-specific form, that a specific key or license has been destroyed. Such messages must be cached in the CDM until acknowledgement of their delivery to the service has been received. This acknowledgement must also be in the form of a CDM-specific message. "

Perhaps I misread, but the datastream is relayed from the browser to the CDM ( and the browser loads and potentially modifies the CDM), so how does the standard ensure that the proof of destruction is actually a message from the CDM and not from the browser?

>9.1 "Everything from user-generated content to be shared with family (user is not an adversary) to online radio to feature-length movies."

Does this imply that from the standpoint of the proposal the user is an adversary, unless specifically noted?

Re: BBC demands DRM for HTML5

#103
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Content (of similar quantity and quality) will in fact still be created, in spite of that business model dying. You're not likely to convince people of this, I believe." "Content" was created long before copyrights. Technology may have changed and opened the door to new kinds of entertainment, but if you are looking for an example of how entertainment might be created in the absence of copyright, you need look no fu…

If you want to convince me, show me where in history you have examples of content being created without copyrights, of the same quantity/quality. Obviously we'll have to normalize your data to the size of the population in the past, not to mention the amount of free time they had available. And if you are really interested in this topic, I suggest you read about the history of copyrights. For example, in the 1800's t…

"And if you are really interested in this topic, I suggest you read about the history of copyrights"

Been there, done that. You left a few details out, like how the first copyright law, the Licensing of the Press Act, was passed to enforce censorship, and how the next iteration was passed following heavy lobbying pressure by the printers who had enjoyed the monopoly position they held under the censorship program. The idea that copyright began as a way to pay authors is based on ignoring the Licensing Act and based on ignoring the role that printers played in pushing for the Statute of Anne.

The arguments authors made in favor of copyrights in the 18th century would have amounted to nothing were it not for the business community.

Prior to copyright, you had Shakespeare, you had folk music (which was spread peer to peer), and you had other modes of entertainment. Nobody was wanting for music or comedy. Written entertainment was more limited by the poor literacy rate of the general population than by the lack of written works. The biggest problem facing actors in 16th century England was not the lack of income (despite the easy duplication of a play), but the fact that they were often arrested as vagrants, and the general trouble with having secular theater at a time when religious institutions were fighting to stay relevant (sound familiar?).

Numbers are unfortunately hard to come by. On the other hand, you can find many shelves of centuries-old songs that were recorded by modern singers -- and it is not unreasonable to say that those songs are just a fraction of what people were singing centuries ago (society tends to forget songs, stories, and games over time). I do not think it is wrong to suggest that there were not shortages of music in the 16th century.

"not allowing for the "misunderstood genius" of people, but solely promoting popular content"

Copyright has done little to alleviate that. Misunderstood genius does not pay the rent; only popularity gives artists enough income to make ends meet on royalties alone. Authors, musicians, and actors frequently stick to their "day jobs" just to pay rent.

Re: BBC demands DRM for HTML5

#104
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks. I read the spec and saw this regarding open source browsers: "9.5. Can I ensure the content key is protected without working with a content protection provider? "No. Protecting the content key would require that the browser's media stack have some secret that cannot easily be obtained. This is the type of thing DRM solutions provide. [...] In addition, it is not something that fully open source browsers could…

Exactly. This illustrates why this W3C spec is not DRM. Some other DRM technology is needed for certain modes.

So it's not DRM, it's just a way for 3rd parties to plug in their own DRM system.

Sorry, that's worse, not better.

Re: BBC demands DRM for HTML5

#105

Wow, Cory's article is totally over the top... as are some of the comments in this thread. Let's start with the facts. Here's the spec. It's called Encrypted Media Extensions (EME). https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/encrypted-med... The EME spec isn't that long, and the introduction has a nice diagram. Go check it out. The W3C spec does not put "DRM in browsers." It allows browsers to use "decryption mod…

> If we're going to transition to a plug-in free web then we need HTML5 video to support these extensions.

So, a plugin-free web that requires plugins?

Re: BBC demands DRM for HTML5

#106
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Content (of similar quantity and quality) will in fact still be created, in spite of that business model dying. You're not likely to convince people of this, I believe." "Content" was created long before copyrights. Technology may have changed and opened the door to new kinds of entertainment, but if you are looking for an example of how entertainment might be created in the absence of copyright, you need look no fu…

If you want to convince me, show me where in history you have examples of content being created without copyrights, of the same quantity/quality. Obviously we'll have to normalize your data to the size of the population in the past, not to mention the amount of free time they had available. And if you are really interested in this topic, I suggest you read about the history of copyrights. For example, in the 1800's t…

> If you want to convince me, show me where in history you have examples of content being created without copyrights, of the same quantity/quality.

That is going to be difficult given that copyright has been granted automatically on new works for a long time. However, I will say that my most favourite shows to watch on TV are available via video podcasts for free (legally). They are not exactly free of copyright, but for all intents and purposes, I'm not sure the lack of copyright would really affect these programs. Any money they do make comes via me watching the show, not by their method of distribution.

Re: BBC demands DRM for HTML5

#107
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. This illustrates why this W3C spec is not DRM. Some other DRM technology is needed for certain modes.

So it's not DRM, it's just a way for 3rd parties to plug in their own DRM system. Sorry, that's worse, not better.

Third parties, namely Flash and Silverlight, already plug in their own DRM systems via NSAPI. How is this worse?

Re: BBC demands DRM for HTML5

#108

Wow, Cory's article is totally over the top... as are some of the comments in this thread. Let's start with the facts. Here's the spec. It's called Encrypted Media Extensions (EME). https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/encrypted-med... The EME spec isn't that long, and the introduction has a nice diagram. Go check it out. The W3C spec does not put "DRM in browsers." It allows browsers to use "decryption mod…

> If we're going to transition to a plug-in free web then we need HTML5 video to support these extensions.

The first part does not imply the second. I know there are legal/licensing reasons for encryption but technology that is going to run the world of tomorrow should not be encumbered because of contractual obligations of today. I fail to see the technical reason why encryption is necessary for Netflix. HTML5 is a technical spec. It does not need to be riddled with extensions to fulfill business needs.

I can't view a stream if I'm not a paying member logged in to the website or XBox/Roku/AppleTV device. Once I am able to view the stream, encryption or not, I can record it through a number of hardware/software mechanisms if I am technically savvy. If I'm not technically savvy, I can't record it regardless of encryption. If I can somehow access the stream without logging in, say the files are stored on CDN and available to everyone over HTTP(S), then you should work on preventing that.

W3C/HTML5 are designing specs for the long haul. I am pretty sure I will be writing web apps in a decade too, like I did a decade ago. iTunes no longer has DRM'ed audio. Who knows, in a decade, Hollywood will give up DRM too, with pressure from Netflix, Apple, Amazon, and Google. But if engineers at these very companies that should be pushing for open-web, insist on burdening the spec to cope with DRM, I doubt we'll ever see that future.

Re: BBC demands DRM for HTML5

#109
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So there is another method of making money for Large Production Movie/T.V.? Please enlighten me. My citation is reality. Take a look around.

We live in a world of government-granted monopolies given to companies like HBO. It is not terribly shocking that those monopolies lead to profits, and that companies that fail to take advantage of the copyright system would have trouble. You are claiming, with no justification, that in the absence of copyright there would be no profit available for people who make entertainment. I am not really sure where you get th…

>We live in a world of government-granted monopolies given to companies like HBO.

I don't even know how to respond to this... last I checked cable and Satellite companies don't force HBO on you. And while cable companies held a semi-monopoly before Satellites, that market got disrupted like 30 years ago. Let it go.

>You are claiming, with no justification, that in the absence of copyright there would be no profit available for people who make entertainment.

Not completely. I'm claiming there wouldn't be enough profit to support the current proliferation or high budget entertainment options. I highly doubt shows like Mad Men, Breaking Bad, Downtown Abbey, etc. would have gotten the funding they needed through crowdsourcing. You typically need a large studio with deep pockets to take on a project of that size. And most of them rely on ad revenue during broadcast, something that would likely diminish if there was no copyright and any TV studio was allowed to rebroadcast with different ads/no ads. Or if people were allowed to video tape it, copy it w/ no ads, and resell it.

Let's take a look at that simple example of yours. So who pays for the pilot episode to be produced? The T.V. studio? And after they air it then what? Hope enough people liked it to both pay for the production costs and a decent profit as well as fund the next episode? And you think that's a sustainable model??

If systems like you mention would be profitable why aren't there non-copyrighted entertainment options raking in the money right now? The internet has been around for awhile. There's nothing stopping people from releasing high quality non-copyrighted content and making money from it. What's the hold up? Government Monopolies??

Re: BBC demands DRM for HTML5

#110
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you believe in unions then? Unions are pretty much the same thing. They inflate wages and force companies to pay workers a wage that would otherwise be much less. Unions have also prevented some jobs from being automated (IE: making them obsolete). "start talking about the possibility of completely upending the copyright system and replacing it with something that makes sense now that we have the Internet." If a c…

> Do you believe in unions then? Unions are pretty much the same thing. They inflate wages and force companies to pay workers a wage that would otherwise be much less. That's the neoliberals or naive american's view on unions. People all over the world would beg to differ. Unions restore (some) of the imbalance in power between the employeer and the individual worker. The protect people that need a job to feed their…

> to the 8-hour work week

You're a couple deacdes early with that

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