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The Perl Renaissance

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Re: The Perl Renaissance

#51

Post by PommeDeTerre »

ww520 wrote: post #38
sylvinus wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Opinions on Python aside, I'd never hire somebody saying something like that at an interview, even about a language I don't like. You should really look past petty details when evaluating any tech and come up with actual arguments.

Why won't you hire someone who has a unfavorable opinion on a language? Do you feel the same way if he mentioned Java instead of Python?

That's clearly not what he said. He just wants actual, technical arguments against a given language, rather than baseless claims that make no sense.

I think it's quite reasonable to be suspicious of a interviewee who is against Python solely because it enforces sensible code indentation.

Re: The Perl Renaissance

#52

Post by whtspcmttrs »

sylvinus wrote: post #21
wazoox wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Python significant white space. Really, that's what preventing me for ever liking Python.

Opinions on Python aside, I'd never hire somebody saying something like that at an interview, even about a language I don't like. You should really look past petty details when evaluating any tech and come up with actual arguments.

The "whitespace matters" business permeates other parts of the language design that contribute to Python's crappyness, like its busted scoping and lack of real lambdas.

You can have it, and I don't want to work for you, anyhow.

Re: The Perl Renaissance

#53

Post by paulnechifor »

cpenner461 wrote: post #39
Ologn wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When programmers discuss Python on the web, this comes up again and again. I agree with you - it is a minus for me in terms of using Python. There are "solutions", there are people who say you get used to it, there are people who say it does not matter, yet it comes up again and again. I guess it does matter, to some of us at least. I can open up a text editor and start writing C, or Java, or Perl, or PHP - all witho…

So technically not "do/while", but: while(some_condition): do_stuff

I prefer:

    while True:
        codeHere()
        if shouldStop():
            break

Re: The Perl Renaissance

#54

Post by flogic »

sylvinus wrote: post #21
wazoox wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Python significant white space. Really, that's what preventing me for ever liking Python.

Opinions on Python aside, I'd never hire somebody saying something like that at an interview, even about a language I don't like. You should really look past petty details when evaluating any tech and come up with actual arguments.

At least in Haskell, I don't really care for the significant white space when it's re-factoring time. I don't see how it wouldn't become more of an issue for a traditional imperative language and their tendency for large blocks.

Re: The Perl Renaissance

#55

Post by wazoox »

PommeDeTerre wrote: post #48
wazoox wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Python significant white space. Really, that's what preventing me for ever liking Python.

When you're writing code in Perl, Ruby or some other language, do you normally not use any indentation? Do you leave all of your code left-aligned?

I didn't say I hate Python, mind you; but I don't like its significant whitespace, like some don't like Lisp for its parentheses and Perl for its sigils.

I'm using Python from time to time, but I wouldn't spontaneously use it for my personal projects, I prefer Perl for that.

The only languages I really wouldn't want to work with is Java.

Re: The Perl Renaissance

#56

Post by razzmataz »

pyre wrote: post #47
PommeDeTerre wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The superb community is one of Python's biggest assets, especially when compared to the Ruby community. The Python community is made up of some very smart and talented experts. Their emphasis is on developing high-quality software, and doing things properly. Egos are kept in check, and there are always many people willing to offer a helping hand to those who are new to Python. The Ruby community is generally quite di…

| Their emphasis is on [...] doing things properly Too bad that doesn't extend to a better solution to packaging / deployment. :P

Nobody really seems to get that right.

Re: The Perl Renaissance

#57

Post by wiremine »

wazoox wrote: post #5
nnq wrote: post #2

...don't get mad for the question, but: anybody has any arguments for using Perl instead of, let's say Python, these days? (besides the "I already know it incredibly well" argument) ...cause the lack of an answer to such a question has only one conclusion: the language is dying, even if this is not already happening in a visible way! (don't get me wrong, I'm not a Perl hater, and fyi, I think the world would be a muc…

Python significant white space. Really, that's what preventing me for ever liking Python.

I used to think this was a drawback. Then I started using Python full time four years ago. Significant white space encourages readability, and readability (IMHO) encourages maintainability.

There are a numbers of things to dislike about Python; however, after you used the language for a while, you realize significant white space isn't one of them. It is like saying lisp's parentheses are ugly: sure, you might not like them, but they are a huge reason the language (and, really, the way of thinking about code) is so powerful.

Re: The Perl Renaissance

#58

Post by wazoox »

sylvinus wrote: post #21
wazoox wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Python significant white space. Really, that's what preventing me for ever liking Python.

Opinions on Python aside, I'd never hire somebody saying something like that at an interview, even about a language I don't like. You should really look past petty details when evaluating any tech and come up with actual arguments.

That doesn't make much sense to me. Let's say if I were interviewed at some place using Java, Python, C and Go, why shouldn't I state my personal language preferences?

For most things as an hiring manager I'm OK with people working with their favourite language on whatever project I assign them to (as long as it isn't too esoteric; OCaml is OK, but Haskell is probably pushing it a bit too far, for instance), except when they have to work on an existing code base, in which case I wouldn't want to hire someone hating it; they'd be miserable and the resulting code would be awful.

Re: The Perl Renaissance

#59

Post by zby »

razzmataz wrote: post #56
pyre wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

| Their emphasis is on [...] doing things properly Too bad that doesn't extend to a better solution to packaging / deployment. :P

Nobody really seems to get that right.

Perl improved much in this area. The main reason for that is probably the automatic tests that for every new release on CPAN are run on a wide array of systems. This kind of infrastructure plus emphasis on having tests in the libraries is where Perl is still ahead of other languages.

Re: The Perl Renaissance

#60

Post by Moto7451 »

pyre wrote: post #49
jstanley wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"you can also see this from the number of noisy evangelists vs. professional users nowadays" Actually, where I work, we use Perl almost exclusively. I don't know a single person who I would consider a "noisy evangelist" - we just quietly get stuff done.

Maybe the noisy evangelists are the only ones with enough confidence to publicly proclaim that they use Perl. The others lack confidence and don't publicly announce it because the general programming community responds with disdain / pity.

Nah I've never met anyone in the Perl community who seemed to care much about what other people thought about their language choice. Also most Perl developers I've met tend to be polygots so they're less likely to be the yelly "THIS IS THE ONE TRUE LANGUAGE" type.

There is a Steve Yeggie quote, though its not necessarily praise for Perl, which always pops to mind when people have a rant about Perl:

'As I've done for a great many other programming languages, I've bashed on Perl's technical weaknesses at length in the past. To my continued amazement, the Perl folks are the only ones who never get upset. They just say "Haha, yeah, boy, you're right, it sure is ugly. Heh. Yeah, so, um, anyway, I'm going to get back to work now..." It's awesome. I've gained so much respect for them. It's almost enough to make me go back to programming in Perl. Well almost.'

Edit: Quote reference: http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/10/egomania-itself.html

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