Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

BBC demands DRM for HTML5

boingboing.net

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 213 posts

Re: BBC demands DRM for HTML5

#31

Post by PavlovsCat »

venomsnake wrote: post #9
lukifer wrote: post #5

I hate DRM too, and yet I love watching Netflix streaming. The fact is, if it's trivial to clone data to the point that regular users can do it (Napster, etc), the business model for online rental vanishes. The fact that DRM is always defeatable through hacks and analog loopholes doesn't matter: it just has to be good enough to deter the vast majority of users. I believe we need comprehensive IP reform across the boa…

Or we can outlaw DRM and put evolutionary pressure on the content providers and emasculate the gatekeepers.

And what would the result be? Everybody gets into bed with advertising, all the time? Why not simply make DRM super simple, kinda like adding an IMG tag to webpage is now? Then artists etc. can become the content providers, decide themselves what they want to offer and how much it would cost, and the audience in turn can decide wether that is fair or a ripoff. That'd be evolution worth talking about..

But if you just "outlaw DRM" (without having any ideas how to enforce copyright otherwise), what does that leave them with? Deals with third parties. The interwebs pompousness regarding this is just hilarious, considering all the middlemen the web is swarming with. What artist can do, or dares to do, without Twitter, Facebook, something like cafepress, maybe specific event websites etc.? Can you see my point? We haven't really steered them away from dependance on big money yet, and already they're getting entangled in a second layer. It's pathetic how easily that gets accepted.

Everybody should have their own website, content creators should have two at least, and the only "content providers" we should ultimately need are ISP's and webhosts, the rest I would prefer to be open protocols. We need more payment options without being at the mercy of individual providers, and we need to grow the fuck up and realize that actually, sometimes it's okay to ask for a bit of money for something that cost someone days, weeks, months to create. We don't rob every shop we see out of spite just because the cash register is locked, and I do feel the interwebs sometimes has that attitude to virtual goods. Evolutionary pressure might as well mean extinction, so maybe think twice.

Re: BBC demands DRM for HTML5

#32

Post by TravisLS »

betterunix wrote: post #18
lukifer wrote: post #5

I hate DRM too, and yet I love watching Netflix streaming. The fact is, if it's trivial to clone data to the point that regular users can do it (Napster, etc), the business model for online rental vanishes. The fact that DRM is always defeatable through hacks and analog loopholes doesn't matter: it just has to be good enough to deter the vast majority of users. I believe we need comprehensive IP reform across the boa…

"The fact is, if it's trivial to clone data to the point that regular users can do it (Napster, etc), the business model for online rental vanishes." Yes, and if it is trivial to send photos without first developing them, the business model for Kodak will vanish! Why, if it were trivial for people to move a carriage from point A to point B, the business model for buggy whip makers might vanish! Why should we be conce…

I don't think it's a given that this model is inherently bad, obsolete, or evil. Unlike say, horses and buggies, it's not clear that there's a superior alternative here.

In the case of video in particular, high quality content is still very expensive to produce. By removing the ability for movie / tv studios to make money from content, the likely outcome is we simply don't have big budget movies or high quality TV anymore.

Aside from all of the reasons why the businesses might want their revenue streams to stay intact, most consumers probably want it as well.

Re: BBC demands DRM for HTML5

#33

Post by julianpye »

I used to work for one of these companies in exactly such a role. Initially my mission in standardization bodies was to look after consumer rights, but it changed to accommodation of IPR patents in the DRM field. There is a group of about 200 professionals in the DRM field, mostly former engineers (that have little grasp outside their expertise) and lawyers that work for companies with significant patent portfolios in the space. They are mostly the same crew, having worked on technologies such as SDMI, OMA-DRM, MPEG-DRM, DVB-CPT frameworks and others - technologies that never saw the light of day over the course of 15 years. I always saw it as a travelling circus - people moving from city to city and continent to continent. They work in a symbiosis with technology people from the entertainment industries, who are also part of the circus. What's important to note is that these people have big named companies on their business cards, but mostly have little involvement into day-to-day business and any products. They frankly just try to keep themselves important and thus employed. Until you give the people in the wandering circus a new assignment, they will always need to find new targets for their technology. I think that is the true reason underneath many of these DRM accomodation efforts into standardization bodies.

Re: BBC demands DRM for HTML5

#34

Post by venomsnake »

youngerdryas wrote: post #26
venomsnake wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Content provider insist "We need DRM to make money with out current business model" ... we say tough luck - innovate and evolve without DRM. It is the same way FIA tries to push innovation in F1 - by strategically forbidding cheesy technologies.

But if you actually believe in evolution then the problem will take care of itself because someone will come along and eat their lunch.

I know that evolution works, but as recent bills in some states shows it can be "outlawed" with enough legislation.

After all money can buy laws that are stratificating current big players and preventing new ideas from entering the marketplace. There was a recent opinion (should check techdirt which politic said it) that insisted on preventing disruptive for copyright holders technologies entering the market freely.

Re: BBC demands DRM for HTML5

#35

Post by doctorfoo »

cmircea wrote: post #23

I would like to know how they plan to get Firefox and Chrome to support that. As free software, adding such functionality would be moot, as it can be trivially by-passed. Or do they want to ignore about 80% of Internet users?

I can see the future: a BBC iPlayer which only supports a few specific web browsers. And the masses will happily "upgrade". All PC manufacturers will ship browsers that support DRM out of the box. (The users want their software to Just Work, after all).

Re: BBC demands DRM for HTML5

#36

Post by PavlovsCat »

Udo wrote: post #10
samarudge wrote: post #3

First you have to understand that not all of the content broadcast on the BBC is created by the BBC. They carry programs made by independent, limited, for-profit studios. They also regularly carry movies. All of which they put up on their iPlayer service. As an example, you can currently watch Madagascar, in full, for free on BBC iPlayer ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00gd77z/Madagascar/ ). While there is an…

I think everyone understands why these companies (including BBC) are pushing for DRM. That doesn't mean it's not evil. The larger issue here, expressed quite well by Doctorow, is that this push requires converting the web into a closed platform. It's clear why entertainment companies want to turn the internet into something that can only be consumed by, say, the Apple app store. That's also the reason why this will n…

this push requires converting the web into a closed platform

How so? It requires the ability to have "locked" content and a mechanism to "unlock" it, but how does this affect anything else? Honest question.

Re: BBC demands DRM for HTML5

#37

Post by emiliobumachar »

Udo wrote: post #10
samarudge wrote: post #3

First you have to understand that not all of the content broadcast on the BBC is created by the BBC. They carry programs made by independent, limited, for-profit studios. They also regularly carry movies. All of which they put up on their iPlayer service. As an example, you can currently watch Madagascar, in full, for free on BBC iPlayer ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00gd77z/Madagascar/ ). While there is an…

I think everyone understands why these companies (including BBC) are pushing for DRM. That doesn't mean it's not evil. The larger issue here, expressed quite well by Doctorow, is that this push requires converting the web into a closed platform. It's clear why entertainment companies want to turn the internet into something that can only be consumed by, say, the Apple app store. That's also the reason why this will n…

I'm alarmed. They can lobby to outlaw owning or distributing DRM-free browsers, just like the push to make DVD-ripping technology illegal.

Re: BBC demands DRM for HTML5

#39

Post by gph »

betterunix wrote: post #22
alanctgardner2 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a horribly insecure Silverlight plugin This is about the HTML5 spec, so I don't even know where you get that idea from. They want to be able to lock down content which is embedded with the video tag. Personally, I don't like the idea of it tying into the operating system. I'm willing to accept any solution that can be built into browser binaries, cross-platform. I don't like the idea of a solution that doesn't work…

"if media companies think this sort of solution is necessary, we should meet them half-way." Or we could not meet them half-way and remind them that they do not own the web and that their business model is as out of date as Kodak. Why should we accept any more attacks on the freedom and openness of the web or the greater Internet? This companies are the ones who need to change: they need to adapt their businesses to…

> they need to adapt their businesses to the realities of this century's technology.

You say this like it's immensely easy.

So say you're head of HBO's original programming dept. It can cost over 100 million dollars to produce one season of a quality show. You can only release it on a medium that allows it to be continuously and freely distributed. How do you make money?

Ads and Product placement is about it. You really think you'll make that 100 million back?? Especially considering that people could just edit out the ads and redistribute your work, it's really only product placement that could make money.

Operating at a loss is not adapting. There's a reason that all of the content currently on netflix/hulu/etc. is already using DRM-enabled plugins. Because you're a f*ing lunatic if you think you can make money through any other method. Throwing out the same old "they must adapt" mantra isn't getting either side anywhere close to a healthy solution.

Re: BBC demands DRM for HTML5

#40

Post by samkline »

cmircea wrote: post #23

I would like to know how they plan to get Firefox and Chrome to support that. As free software, adding such functionality would be moot, as it can be trivially by-passed. Or do they want to ignore about 80% of Internet users?

Well, Google could probably add it to Chrome. Chromium users, however, wouldn't get it. They already do this with the proprietary PDF viewer [1]

[1] http://googlesystem.blogspot.com/2010/08/google-chromes-pdf-...

Post reply on HN