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LLC vs. S-Corp vs. C-Corp

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Re: LLC vs. S-Corp vs. C-Corp

#21
post #9

What isn't mentioned here is that an LLC is relatively straightforward to set up, an average Hacker News reader could set one up in their state with a few hundred dollars and no lawyer. S-Corps are more complicated (you will need a lawyer), and C-Corps are VERY complicated (you will want at least 2 lawyers). The amount of legal fees and time spent creating the different corporations varies immensely. It's not as simp…

You can elect for your LLC to be taxed as an S-corp for free. Just a few forms to file with the IRS.

There are many considerations so talking to a professional is always a good idea but remember:

LLC = Lawyer's Likely Choice

Re: LLC vs. S-Corp vs. C-Corp

#23
I am sure the author of this article intended to help others make wise tax/entity formation decisions but many of the facts mentioned are just incorrect (tax rates and some general tax concepts). C-corps are fairly uncommon nowadays and for good reason You are almost always going to pay more tax in the C-corp and you will face built in gains issues when you realize this and decide to elect to be an S-corp.

The tone of the article seems to be slightly rushed and frustrated and leads me to wonder if the author just received unexpected news from his accountant.

One example:

Using 2013 tax rates and assuming that the taxpayer is single:

Individual Federal income tax on taxable income of $90,000 (ignoring personal deductions/exemptions/itemized deductions, etc..) that the example taxpayer in the article might have to pay if they were a 50% partner/member in an LLC:

Roughly $18,493 (less than 21%)

Corporate Federal income tax on $100,000 if you and your partner had a C-corp instead and took 40k salaries then left $100k in the company.

Roughly $22,250 (About 22%)

But then if you end up not spending that money because you made a boatload of cash the next year and want to take it out:

$3,337 (15% capital gains)

leading to a rough total of $25,587 (over 25.5%).

You might look at this example and say "hey that's just a few %" but as the income in question grows, so does the gap.

Edit: The real reason startups might end up as corporations is for the beneficial tax treatment investors can receive as holders of small business stock (1202, 1244).

Re: LLC vs. S-Corp vs. C-Corp

#24
One problem with the reasoning in this article: reinvested earnings usually don't sit on the company's balance sheet as cash -- they're reinvested into the business as wages, advertising, and other expenses, all of which reduce profit (but increase long-term enterprise value).

If you own a lot of proprietary IP, go with the C corp, otherwise if you're running an asset-light cash business where most of your revenue flows through to profit or pays short-term expenses (e.g consulting), a pass-through entity (LLC/S Corp) is probably better.

Re: LLC vs. S-Corp vs. C-Corp

#25
Here’s the snag. If you are using a pass-through entity such as a LLC or S-Corp that money you are leaving in the company (retained earnings) is personally taxable to you in proportion to your ownership of the corporation.

LLCs and S Corps can be taxed like a corporation and not as a pass-through entity.

Re: LLC vs. S-Corp vs. C-Corp

#26
With all due respect, this article really isn't that great.

Here's the real difference, stated succinctly:

LLCs and S-corps are pass-through entities that aren't generally subject to regular corporate income tax like C-corps are. (But there are exceptions, like NYC, which taxes S-corps as if they were C-corps.) Additionally, C- and S-corps can issue stock to owners and investors, while LLCs cannot, but S-corps are restricted in various ways that C-corps are not, like not being able to issue stock to foreign investors, having only one class of stock and no more than 100 stock owners.

VCs and Angels will not invest in an LLC, and the process to convert an LLC to C-corp is (or was, last time I checked) difficult, typically involving the formation of a brand new C-corp that buys the LLC and then dissolves the assets of the LLC into itself. I believe Joel once mentioned that FogCreek went through this process years ago, and it was not very pleasant. By contrast, it is trivial to convert an S-corp to a C-corp with one form (IRS Form 1120).

If you ever plan on issuing stock or taking outside investment, start out as a C-corp or S-corp. If you plan on running a business that won't (or can't) issue stock or accept outside investment (like a law firm or medical practice), then form an LLC.

Re: LLC vs. S-Corp vs. C-Corp

#27
post #16
post #9

What isn't mentioned here is that an LLC is relatively straightforward to set up, an average Hacker News reader could set one up in their state with a few hundred dollars and no lawyer. S-Corps are more complicated (you will need a lawyer), and C-Corps are VERY complicated (you will want at least 2 lawyers). The amount of legal fees and time spent creating the different corporations varies immensely. It's not as simp…

An LLC may be easy to set up, but maintaining the personal liability shield is non-trivial. I'd recommend getting advice from a lawyer no matter the route taken.

What do you mean by this?

Re: LLC vs. S-Corp vs. C-Corp

#28
post #16
post #9

What isn't mentioned here is that an LLC is relatively straightforward to set up, an average Hacker News reader could set one up in their state with a few hundred dollars and no lawyer. S-Corps are more complicated (you will need a lawyer), and C-Corps are VERY complicated (you will want at least 2 lawyers). The amount of legal fees and time spent creating the different corporations varies immensely. It's not as simp…

An LLC may be easy to set up, but maintaining the personal liability shield is non-trivial. I'd recommend getting advice from a lawyer no matter the route taken.

Please expand on this. It's quite a bold statement to make without giving at least basic details about what non-trivial issues you are referring to.

Re: LLC vs. S-Corp vs. C-Corp

#29
This is not legal advice.

The article focuses on a very small tax issue that should not be determinative of business structure. The way a Start-up should decide to form a business generally should be as follows:

1. State - generally always choose the State the Founder is physically located. If you choose Delaware or another State you are not physically located, you must "qualify" your business to do business in every State you have a physical presence - failure to qualify may negate any protections offered by the business structure.

2. Structure -(Corp (S or C) vs LLC) This is determined on a two part analysis: First, I start with liability, CPAs typically only look at the tax issue, you want to ensure the Founder(s) will not be liable for business debts and the business can not be liable for Founder's personal debts. Example, I would always advise against a "single member" LLC because an LLC is considered a Partnership, thus Courts will not enforce Partnership protection where there are no Partners (ie, single member) and the LLC can be liable for Founder's personal debts - on the other hand a CPA will usually recommend single member LLCs because they are taxed like a sole proprietorship(make filing taxes really easy). Second, should be the tax issue, if multiple Founders I suggest LLC, especially when there are foreign Founders, if it is a single Founder then I suggest Corp. and S status if qualified.

3. Cost- This should never be determinative but taken into consideration. The cost of forming/qualifying Corp and LLC can vary greatly among the States. Additionally, compliance (annual reports, state taxes) among the States can vary as greatly as well as the cost of compliance and the penalties for failure to timely file can be very costly.

I know the word in SV is that Start-ups must be C-Corps incorporated in Delaware in order to receive funding. My thought is that if a Start-up is already incorporated/organized and has not received funding the Founders can easily: 1. "Domesticate" their business entity to Delaware, if an LLC perform a Conversion to a C-Corp., or 2. Dissolve and have the investors attorney's draft the new Delaware Articles of Incorporation.

As to the tax issue discussed I did not notice the article discuss that an LLC can be taxed as a C-Corp and if qualified elect S status. Also, playing the game of minimizing salary and maximizing distributions, while obviously beneficial because an owner only pays payroll and FICA on salary not on distribution, becomes a dangerous game that may result in the IRS knocking on the door. However, to the best of my knowledge the IRS has only ever gone after S-Corporations in such situations and have not set a precedent of going after LLCs.

Re: LLC vs. S-Corp vs. C-Corp

#30

I am sure the author of this article intended to help others make wise tax/entity formation decisions but many of the facts mentioned are just incorrect (tax rates and some general tax concepts). C-corps are fairly uncommon nowadays and for good reason You are almost always going to pay more tax in the C-corp and you will face built in gains issues when you realize this and decide to elect to be an S-corp. The tone o…

>C-corps are fairly uncommon nowadays and for good reason You are almost always going to pay more tax in the C-corp and you will face built in gains issues when you realize this and decide to elect to be an S-corp.

I think you are correct few start-ups and small businesses will ever incorporate and be taxed as a C-Corp. However, there are limitations to the S-Corps, such as a max of 100 shareholders and I think prohibitions foreign shareholders, so any public company is generally going to be C-Corp, the major exception I can think of are publicly traded banks who are N.A.s

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