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That Tesla Data: What It Says and What It Doesn’t

wheels.blogs.nytimes.com

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Re: That Tesla Data: What It Says and What It Doesn’t

#221

Post by onemorepassword »

andrewfelix wrote: post #192
tunesmith wrote: post #162

I put a graph together showing all the points/counterpoints and here's what I'm left with. - not charging past 90% at the 1st station is defensible. Especially if Tesla warns it will shorten the battery's life. - It'd be better if Tesla's software took temperature into account when estimating mileage range. - Broder is being ridiculous about the cruise control and his speed estimates, and the temperature. He has part…

"reads like Broder was trying to stack the deck" I disagree. I think Broder is doing what a lot of journalists do and has accentuated the overall negative experience to create a better narrative. In spite of the poor communication and slight exaggeration, I don't feel like there was malice or a great deal of intent on Broder's behalf. He generally had a poor experience. The errors in his story do not negate that, and…

I agree that this is what journalists do. It's also why the public stops trusting journalists, especially after they've personally experienced this. It's what the rest of us calls "lying".

This may not be an example of individual malice, but it is definitely an example of why journalism that still uses practices that pre-date video, let alone the internet, no longer commands any kind of respect.

Broder lied "because that's what journalists do". Think about that.

Re: That Tesla Data: What It Says and What It Doesn’t

#222

Post by dsrguru »

foobarian wrote: post #159
recoiledsnake wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The major WTF moment for me was this: > I was given battery-conservation advice at that time (turn off the cruise control; alternately slow down and speed up to take advantage of regenerative braking) Someone failed at basic thermodynamics. Converting electricity to mechanical and back to electricity causes a terrible loss in power.

This. That a Tesla customer rep would ever say this seems beyond belief.

That a New York Times journalist would fabricate data in an automobile review in order to wage war on the electric car industry seems beyond belief as well. We really don't have enough info to resolve these discrepancies, but Occam's Razor suggests to me that John Broder legitimately believes his claims and Elon Musk believes Broder to be a liar. One or both of them has incorrect data. It seems unlikely that either is deliberately lying.

Re: That Tesla Data: What It Says and What It Doesn’t

#223

Post by zeru »

codex wrote: post #29
jules wrote: post #5

> I was given battery-conservation advice at that time (turn off the cruise control; alternately slow down and speed up to take advantage of regenerative braking ) that was later contradicted by other Tesla personnel. What the heck? Does this guy seriously think that braking and then speeding up will conserve battery? Maybe the adage "don't attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity" is true.

Had the reporter ignored Tesla's advice, the review would have been tainted. It's either "do what Tesla says, they're the experts" or "I'm doing to do my own thing sgainst Tesla's advice, invalidating all conclusions in this article." The journalist chose the former.

I seriously dont think he ever got that advice. It speaks against 6th grade physics and any common sense.

Re: That Tesla Data: What It Says and What It Doesn’t

#224

Post by krashidov »

I'm sure most people wouldn't have even known about the NYT article or even taken it very seriously, but after this whole kerfuffle, Musk has put the Streisand effect into full force.

Personally I think that Tesla looks bad here. They have been given so much praise over the last year that this one unfortunate review caused them to react with overzealous vigilance. Perhaps, if Musk had privately contacted Broder, shown him the data and make an understanding out of all this, they could have re-done the road trip and all would be well.

Instead, Musk attempts to embarrass him with internal logs and a blog post. It almost seems like he is implying that Broder has some ulterior agenda. I'm not saying Musk is right or wrong (I really don't know). I'm saying he could have handled the whole thing a lot better.

Re: That Tesla Data: What It Says and What It Doesn’t

#225

Post by andrewfelix »

onemorepassword wrote: post #221
andrewfelix wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"reads like Broder was trying to stack the deck" I disagree. I think Broder is doing what a lot of journalists do and has accentuated the overall negative experience to create a better narrative. In spite of the poor communication and slight exaggeration, I don't feel like there was malice or a great deal of intent on Broder's behalf. He generally had a poor experience. The errors in his story do not negate that, and…

I agree that this is what journalists do. It's also why the public stops trusting journalists, especially after they've personally experienced this. It's what the rest of us calls "lying". This may not be an example of individual malice, but it is definitely an example of why journalism that still uses practices that pre-date video, let alone the internet, no longer commands any kind of respect. Broder lied "because…

I wouldn't characterise it as lying. Broder constructed a narrative around his experience, and got a couple of the details wrong.

Re: That Tesla Data: What It Says and What It Doesn’t

#226

Post by onemorepassword »

andrewfelix wrote: post #225
onemorepassword wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that this is what journalists do. It's also why the public stops trusting journalists, especially after they've personally experienced this. It's what the rest of us calls "lying". This may not be an example of individual malice, but it is definitely an example of why journalism that still uses practices that pre-date video, let alone the internet, no longer commands any kind of respect. Broder lied "because…

I wouldn't characterise it as lying. Broder constructed a narrative around his experience, and got a couple of the details wrong.

This is the expectation mismatch between journalism and its dwindling audience: the general public doesn't expect journalists to "construct a narrative".

Most people expect journalism to be about the cold hard facts, possibly biased in it's tone and interpretation, but not altering the facts in favor of a narrative. Manipulating quotes is another journalistic favorite, because hey, just because it's between quotation marks doesn't mean they literally said that...

In the real world, that is called "lying and deceiving", unless it's marked "fiction" (or "advertising").

Every time people find out the truth doesn't match the reports, journalism loses a little more respect, but for some insane reason journalists insist on maintaining this completely outdated practice that is no longer justifiable in today's world of video, audio and instant global communication. And of course, logs...

Re: That Tesla Data: What It Says and What It Doesn’t

#227

Post by andrewfelix »

onemorepassword wrote: post #226
andrewfelix wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't characterise it as lying. Broder constructed a narrative around his experience, and got a couple of the details wrong.

This is the expectation mismatch between journalism and its dwindling audience: the general public doesn't expect journalists to "construct a narrative". Most people expect journalism to be about the cold hard facts, possibly biased in it's tone and interpretation, but not altering the facts in favor of a narrative. Manipulating quotes is another journalistic favorite, because hey, just because it's between quotation…

You make very good points. But I think to be fair to Broder who operates within the context that he does, he was not out of line.

I do agree that the nature of news is changing as are readers expectations.

Re: That Tesla Data: What It Says and What It Doesn’t

#228

Post by loteck »

onemorepassword wrote: post #226
andrewfelix wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't characterise it as lying. Broder constructed a narrative around his experience, and got a couple of the details wrong.

This is the expectation mismatch between journalism and its dwindling audience: the general public doesn't expect journalists to "construct a narrative". Most people expect journalism to be about the cold hard facts, possibly biased in it's tone and interpretation, but not altering the facts in favor of a narrative. Manipulating quotes is another journalistic favorite, because hey, just because it's between quotation…

the general public doesn't expect journalists to "construct a narrative". Most people expect journalism to be about the cold hard facts

this is a very old way of thinking about journalism and contrasts bizarrely with your assertion that building narratives is an outdated practice. in today's world of A/V/Instant communication, its becoming more and more clear that not only will people not pay attention to "cold hard fact" journalism, but what a lot of people actually want isn't merely narratives, its narratives that they agree with.

Re: That Tesla Data: What It Says and What It Doesn’t

#229

Post by kamaal »

redm wrote: post #211
andrewfelix wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"reads like Broder was trying to stack the deck" I disagree. I think Broder is doing what a lot of journalists do and has accentuated the overall negative experience to create a better narrative. In spite of the poor communication and slight exaggeration, I don't feel like there was malice or a great deal of intent on Broder's behalf. He generally had a poor experience. The errors in his story do not negate that, and…

> In spite of the poor communication and slight exaggeration, I don't feel like there was malice or a great deal of intent on Broder's behalf. He generally had a poor experience. I don't know much about electric cars, but I do know this: They aren't great for long distrance driving. I have no doubt that Broder had a bad experience. When it's 10 degrees outside, I don't want to turn off the climate control. When I'm d…

>>They aren't great for long distrance driving.

Sorry to be giving a negative opinion on electric cars. But hours together of charging, unpredictable battery performance, high prices of cars.

This just doesn't seem right.

Electric cars just aren't ready yet.

Re: That Tesla Data: What It Says and What It Doesn’t

#230

Post by kamaal »

jacquesm wrote: post #3

Two bits are completely non-sensical to me, is there any battery technician or otherwise knowledgeable person that can indicate in what conditions this makes any sense? > Beginning early in the morning of my second day with the car, after the projected range had dropped precipitously while parked overnight, I spoke numerous times with Christina Ra, Tesla’s spokeswoman at the time, and Ted Merendino, a Tesla product p…

>>Or are Tesla spokespeople and product gurus totally clueless (which would seem to be very hard on the imagination)?

No, its not hard to imagine this and might even be true. Middle managers know little apart from running daily affairs.

Its very much possible that when faced with questions they have no answers to they might have imagined a analogous set up(ordinary fuel car) and apply the question to such a thing and seek answers.

When you make uninformed guesses in the wild especially about new things, you generally make colossal mistakes- that is what seems to have happened here.

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