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Website Impounded

fitnesssf.com

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Re: Website Impounded

#121

Post by [deleted] »

logn wrote: post #107
DanBC wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Similarly, I've met software developers who set timebombs in custom software they write for companies, with an easy to install patch that gets released when that company pays it's bill. Not paying your bills is not legal, and the designer has a legal option. Putting a timebomb in the software is also not legal, and probably a criminal offence in some places.

Taking someone to small claims court over state lines is exceedingly difficult, let alone in another country. How is a "timebomb" not legal? I think Microsoft call its version of this "Genuine Advantage". And the shareware community calls this a Trial Period.

[deleted]

Re: Website Impounded

#122

Post by yuhong »

gcb0 wrote: post #115
logn wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taking someone to small claims court over state lines is exceedingly difficult, let alone in another country. How is a "timebomb" not legal? I think Microsoft call its version of this "Genuine Advantage". And the shareware community calls this a Trial Period.

That's a very good point. Things like those should be Illegal. Not the 'time bomb'/"genuine advantage' but the fact that people lie to you during the sale. a Trial Period is explicit. Renting is explicity. time bomb and genuine advantage or how microsoft is selling Office at staples nowadays is not! it's criminal and devised to take money out of the likes who still pay AOL on top of Cable for Internet.

"time bomb and genuine advantage or how microsoft is selling Office at staples nowadays is not!" What do you mean?

Re: Website Impounded

#123

Post by gnu8 »

fencepost wrote: post #18

My suspicion is that this is being done because it's international. If Fitness SF is as I suspect in San Francisco while the developer is in Europe, collections will be a real headache. Sue? Sure, probably where you are, probably win. Then collect from the European presence of a California fitness club. I see a potential disconnect. Sue in California? How much is THAT going to cost someone based in Europe? And really…

If only there was some sort of a company that could try to collect on unpaid bills in exchange for a fee...

Re: Website Impounded

#124

Post by jchavannes »

drcube wrote: post #95
jstalin wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't pay the mechanic, the mechanic doesn't get to put a sign out front saying "BOB DOESN'T PAY HIS BILLS. HE'S IMMORAL!"

Actually, I see this quite often at shops all over. One posted the full name and amount of unpaid bills on their very large outdoor sign. Others post pictures of bounced checks. If the mechanic is the shop owner, he can do what he wants with his property. And as far as I'm concerned, this applies to the web, too. If the web designer still owns the domain and server, go ahead and deface it to their hearts' content. If…

I can say from experience that a blank website is very effective in getting a stubborn client to pay. Defacing them is probably taking it too far though, and I don't see how it could be more effective.

Re: Website Impounded

#125

Post by sirclueless »

artursapek wrote: post #116
DanBC wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that's just a time limit and obviously there's nothing wrong with that. But the concept of a time bomb is that it's hidden and can cause harm at some point. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic_bomb )

Exactly. If the client was warned, removing the time bomb from the code wouldn't be hard.

Cryptography to the rescue! Years of research and expenditure on DRM says it should darn well be possible. It might also be possible to break it, but just imagine the irony of someone who refused to pay bills for contracted software dev work from one company, trying to hire a team to crack the DRM from the previous contractor?

Re: Website Impounded

#126

Post by evilduck »

gnu8 wrote: post #123
fencepost wrote: post #18

My suspicion is that this is being done because it's international. If Fitness SF is as I suspect in San Francisco while the developer is in Europe, collections will be a real headache. Sue? Sure, probably where you are, probably win. Then collect from the European presence of a California fitness club. I see a potential disconnect. Sue in California? How much is THAT going to cost someone based in Europe? And really…

If only there was some sort of a company that could try to collect on unpaid bills in exchange for a fee...

You'd only receive a fraction of the amount owed by selling the debt to a collections agency.

Re: Website Impounded

#127

Post by tptacek »

d23 wrote: post #119
tzs wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you take your car to the shop and can't pay for the work to be done, they put a mechanic's lien on it, and impound the car until the work is paid for. This is no different from that method, which is totally legal. The former is legal because it is specifically authorized by law. For example, here in Washington mechanic's liens are specifically authorized and regulated in the Revised Code of Washington chapter 60…

> Unless website impounding is explicitly authorized and regulated in law, then you can't accurately say it is no different than a mechanic's lien. Morally I can.

Actually you cannot. Even if, like me, you can see the justification for disabling the site a deadbeat client asked you to build, you cannot logically say that retaining possession of a car is the same thing as taking someone's online presence and turning it against them as a debt collection mechanism.

Re: Website Impounded

#128

Post by nwh »

thisisdallas wrote: post #85
rglover wrote: post #46

Hand down my favorite phrase from our contract: At the designated point in the project and after final payment has been received, we will present you with all files pertaining to your project.

Exactly. I have something along the same line in my contract. I never give the client all the files or set up the site until I have been paid in full. I regularly send them updates, screenshots and allow them to test out sites on the dev server but I never give them a finished product without being paid in full. Before I start, there is a 50% retainer. After the design is completed the client pays 25% of the total. A…

On a fairly regular basis I see print jobs being requested that have watermarks of the designer over it; clearly the client hasn't paid and is going to print with the low quality proof. It's weird that people believe it to be acceptable.

Re: Website Impounded

#129

Post by rurounijones »

rickdale wrote: post #17

I am sorry, but this guy is way out of line here. Legally I have no idea, but morally, I do. I mean, go to the place and talk to someone. Or take down the site. Don't start a campaign for your feelings. edit: On second thought I was eating a restaurant when their televisions turned black and the screen came up with a pay your bill now notice. Every screen in the restaurant. So I guess maybe this is the tactic.

"go to the place and talk to someone"

Dev in Germany, Company in San Francisco.

Re: Website Impounded

#130

Post by ams6110 »

zdw wrote: post #35

I don't see the problem with this. People deserve to be paid for the work they do, and time they expend, which is irreplaceable. If you take your car to the shop and can't pay for the work to be done, they put a mechanic's lien on it, and impound the car until the work is paid for. This is no different from that method, which is totally legal. Similarly, I've met software developers who set timebombs in custom softwa…

Time spent on collecting is also irreplaceable. I do a bit of freelancing, and honestly if the amount due were anything less than a few thousand dollars I'd probably just write it off, or sell the invoice to a debt collector for whatever fraction they would pay. I can make more money working for other clients in the time I would spend on collecting a small debt.

For something more substantial, you need to protect yourself by getting some of the money up front or as defined project milestones are met. And final delivery/live site should be held until final payment is received.

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