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VA Medical Appointment Scheduling Contest – $9M in prizes

vascheduling.challenge.gov

31–40 of 42 posts

Re: VA Medical Appointment Scheduling Contest – $9M in prizes

#31
Reading the functional spec, I'm having a really hard time figuring out how this could be built for $3mm, even with mostly offshore resources. Unpacking just a few of those line items is a huge amount of work, and there are >100 of these:

"1.4.5 The system shall have the capability to allow, in certain circumstances, Veterans to schedule appointments via remote access mechanisms such as phone, internet, email and other mobile devices."

"3.5.2 The system shall apply configurable business rules to the management of a long-term appointment request list."

"3.8.2 The system shall have the ability to merge, purge, or distribute scheduled appointments from one resource to another when emergency scheduling changes occur."

"4.1.6 The system shall have the capability to configure and enforce business rules at the clinical service level, clinic level, provider, and appointment type level (e.g., females in Obstetrics/Gynecology clinic)."

At least they've been kind enough to write a web services API for VistA for you to use...

Re: VA Medical Appointment Scheduling Contest – $9M in prizes

#32
post #28
post #20

$3 million is enough to make me think crazy so after looking through the spec for a while I downloaded VistA to get an idea of how hard it would be to build something in M and integrate it. To get a flavor of it, here is a random selection from one of the 913 files making up their current scheduling system (said file helpfully named SCAPMC8P.m, pretty much like all the others): SCDATES2,SCN2,SCPTP,SCX,SCXA,SCXE,SCNA,…

Ah, yes. M: the language of indirection, post-conditional goto's, period indented block levels, and strict left-to-right order of operations (2+8*10=100). It doesn't require writing code as unreadable as this, but it sure doesn't discourage it.

Would writing a DSL that compiled down to MUMPS be out of the question?

Re: VA Medical Appointment Scheduling Contest – $9M in prizes

#33
post #31

Reading the functional spec, I'm having a really hard time figuring out how this could be built for $3mm, even with mostly offshore resources. Unpacking just a few of those line items is a huge amount of work, and there are >100 of these: "1.4.5 The system shall have the capability to allow, in certain circumstances, Veterans to schedule appointments via remote access mechanisms such as phone, internet, email and oth…

Money aside, the schedule of the contest is way too aggressive given the long list of requirements; some of which are quite vague.

Re: VA Medical Appointment Scheduling Contest – $9M in prizes

#34
post #20

$3 million is enough to make me think crazy so after looking through the spec for a while I downloaded VistA to get an idea of how hard it would be to build something in M and integrate it. To get a flavor of it, here is a random selection from one of the 913 files making up their current scheduling system (said file helpfully named SCAPMC8P.m, pretty much like all the others): SCDATES2,SCN2,SCPTP,SCX,SCXA,SCXE,SCNA,…

A few years ago, I did some health IT stuff (implemented 5 RHIOs which included 80 hospitals plus various partners comprising roughly 300 data feeds).

I played with VistA. Thought maybe I could steal some of their fire. At the time, the VA was getting a lot of props for turning their act around and VistA was considered no small part.

MUMPS.

I will never willingly work on MUMPS.

I had to do a bunch of Intersystems' Cache, Ensemble, ObjectScript work. Inspired by MUMPS (the communities overlap). Complete garbage. Remember how a coding error can bork (brick) a SmallTalk runtime? Welcome to Intersystems. But without the benefits of a debugger, undo, version control, real database, an actual grammar and compiler, or rational people creating and supporting the product.

I mention Intersystems because as bad as it is, MUMPS makes it look slick.

Please understand that I am completely, utterly committed to universal healthcare with a single payer in the USA. Medicare/VA for all.

But if it means the infrastructure running VistA + MUMPS, I'll probably vote against it. (And I don't know if I'm joking.) I just can't imagine an IT migration to VistA finishing before the heat death of the universe.

Re: VA Medical Appointment Scheduling Contest – $9M in prizes

#35
post #32
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, yes. M: the language of indirection, post-conditional goto's, period indented block levels, and strict left-to-right order of operations (2+8*10=100). It doesn't require writing code as unreadable as this, but it sure doesn't discourage it.

Would writing a DSL that compiled down to MUMPS be out of the question?

Maybe.

MUMPS has a hierarchical data model. What the genius' at Intersystems call n-dimensional (arrays of arrays, or nested arrays). The reason MUMPS is still used is because the implementers still have hierarchy on the brain and believe that kind of work is best done in MUMPS.

I think they're wrong.

Either way, I can't think of a way to compile generic Java (or equiv) to generic MUMPS. The data models just don't line up.

The HL7 view of the data, which is just a tree graph, can be well supported in languages like Java. I wrote a code generator that compiled HL7 specs to Java code. It was awesome. Because it catches coding errors at compile time. Versus using a dynamic programming language. Or even worse, something like a declarative schema thingie, like all the ETL tools I've seen. (Think Hibernate style ORM for HL7.)

But having done that, I also think that's wrong.

We spent a lot of time reading HL7 (eg lab results), decomposing it for storage into a RDBMS, creating wicked joins to recreate the original hierarchical data, and then send it along (to a data feed or web page report).

I now think medical data should mostly be stored as documents and indexed using something like Lucene. Completely skipping SQL. Using an HL7 code generator & parser like the one I wrote, it's trivial to pull out the bits you care about. And when you have to mimic the single source of truth (eg what medications is the patient taking today?) you can tackle that with a map/reduce strategy.

That idea is a freebie for you, the world, or nobody. I'm not doing any healthcare work any more, so no longer have a dog in that fight.

Re: VA Medical Appointment Scheduling Contest – $9M in prizes

#37
post #32
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, yes. M: the language of indirection, post-conditional goto's, period indented block levels, and strict left-to-right order of operations (2+8*10=100). It doesn't require writing code as unreadable as this, but it sure doesn't discourage it.

Would writing a DSL that compiled down to MUMPS be out of the question?

[deleted]

Re: VA Medical Appointment Scheduling Contest – $9M in prizes

#38

"If an individual, an entrant must be a citizen of or permanent resident of the United States". You have already lost 96% of contestants who could have contributed.

This is required by federal law. Contractors are required to reside in the US or be a US citizen. There is no outsourcing in the federal government for obvious security, quality, and political reasons. It is one of the reasons that while many large tech companies are/were laying off gobs of people in their US divisions the survivors were notably for the most part working on government contracts.

Re: VA Medical Appointment Scheduling Contest – $9M in prizes

#39
If you read people's comments here two things are obvious:

(1) Few people have little if any understanding of federal government contracting. This solicitation is the norm, get used to it if you want to earn big money in a market where few dare tread. The government is, for obvious reasons, highly risk averse - so fly by night untested products from day 1 startups usually aren't an option. As are products from companies and individuals who don't thoroughly understand the regulatory environment of dealing with health data and the ramifications of having to report directly to Congress because of an app that leaks sensitive data, no matter how inconsequential it may be. To create a winning product, you need to take the time to understand the environment of the VA.

(2) The fact that so many people here choose to complain about the complexity of the challenge means that it is worth doing. They are already ruled out as competitors, and it is a worthwhile cause as many veterans, including myself, would greatly benefit from this type of functionality.

(3) Yes, M is a horrid, horrid language, but there are available interfaces so that you don't have to really touch it (much). There is a fairly robust XML-RPC system in place and some other options for reading and writing data in and out of VistA.

Re: VA Medical Appointment Scheduling Contest – $9M in prizes

#40

If you read people's comments here two things are obvious: (1) Few people have little if any understanding of federal government contracting. This solicitation is the norm, get used to it if you want to earn big money in a market where few dare tread. The government is, for obvious reasons, highly risk averse - so fly by night untested products from day 1 startups usually aren't an option. As are products from compan…

(1) Guilty as charged. How would one go about learning the environment of the VA?

(3) I found some web services they set up for scheduling, but with minimal functionality. And from the specs it looks like new data structures would be required, and I'd think those would have to go in VistA rather than being held in some external database. Is that incorrect?

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