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Introducing The Paper Bay

jacquesmattheij.com

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Re: Introducing The Paper Bay

#51

Post by Toenex »

roel_v wrote: post #36
Toenex wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I'm right in saying that by emailing you a copy of the PDF, many authors are breaking their contract with the publisher. It's a few years since I published an academic paper but I've certain signed over my rights more times that I care to recall. So while you can get a copy of the paper from the author officially that is not allowed. Thankfully most academics are not dickheads about this. The key problem with…

Sure, but the kind of 'paper sharing' services such as proposed by the OP have the same problem. Many journals do allow you to share your own article, although I don't know the details by hard nor would I even know where to start looking for the conditions of publishing of my own papers. Your last two paragraphs illustrate my point, or rather the myopic viewpoint that these 'paper liberators' advocate - nobody outsid…

I admit I'm not saying that ThePaperBay necessarily offers the right solution but I am refuting your claim that there isn't really a problem. The issue here is that there has always been a problem. Academic output should always have been available to anyone who wanted it _at a fair price_. Until electronic documents became so ubiquitous you could tollerate the constraints of publisher ownership because they helped overcome real problems of communication and physical distribution. The question is haven't we now reached the point where these problems have gone away?

Re: Introducing The Paper Bay

#54

Post by roel_v »

sergiosgc wrote: post #48
roel_v wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But those perennial papers are usually so widely spread that a simple google search will bring them up, or otherwise somebody in the department will have a copy on their hard disk; so finding it is as simple as asking 'hey who has xyz' on the internal mailing list. Maybe it's different in mathematics, I don't know, I'm just stating my experiences. Few fields are as long-lasting as mathematics, too, I think; in most f…

But, again, those that can ask on the mailing list, also have the university subscription to go through pay walls. People outside investigation groups are left outside the party. You are not making a convincing argument that papers are already "free enough". Unless you assume all interested parties are from the academic world, that is...

"Unless you assume all interested parties are from the academic world, that is.."

But seriously, how many people aren't? Yes yes there is always that one guy in his attic or log cabin... Most university libraries offer subscriptions to externals, too (mine does for less than 50 USD a year). So it's really only for people who are interested in academic materials, who are outside of any reach of a university (because really all you have to do is become member of a university library to get access to the electronic materials from the comfort of your own home). How many people fit that criterium? I'm arguing that overall, the problem is mostly in people's minds.

Re: Introducing The Paper Bay

#55

Post by roel_v »

rmc wrote: post #41
roel_v wrote: post #14

With the exception of old and obscure papers (i.e., 15 years or more and not cited in the last 5 years), I don't really see what the big problem is. I have yet to mail an author and not receive a pdf of the paper, usually within days, sometimes within minutes. When you have a reference and Google, you're seconds away from finding that author's current affiliation & email address. I once emailed the author of a book t…

Presuming you can speak English.

If you don't, how are you going to read a paper in English?

Re: Introducing The Paper Bay

#56

Post by roel_v »

stared wrote: post #47
roel_v wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But those perennial papers are usually so widely spread that a simple google search will bring them up, or otherwise somebody in the department will have a copy on their hard disk; so finding it is as simple as asking 'hey who has xyz' on the internal mailing list. Maybe it's different in mathematics, I don't know, I'm just stating my experiences. Few fields are as long-lasting as mathematics, too, I think; in most f…

It isn't as simple, as a perennial paper in mathematics does not have to be even famous. It may have even not cites (yet). And I'm speaking of my experience (theoretical physics). Moreover, then you can hardly expect that one of a bunch of guys at your department has the paper. Sure, for applied (or even - experimental) sciences it is different.

How would you know about a paper you don't have and doesn't have any cites and is 50 years old? How can a paper be perennial if it doesn't have any cites? A paper being perennial is, I'd argue, defined by getting cites on a regular basis even after many years.

Who does theoretical physics / mathematics and doesn't have access to a university library? And don't say Ramanujan, people in those circumstances wouldn't have access to the internet, either.

Re: Introducing The Paper Bay

#58

Post by wfn »

roel_v wrote: post #56
stared wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't as simple, as a perennial paper in mathematics does not have to be even famous. It may have even not cites (yet). And I'm speaking of my experience (theoretical physics). Moreover, then you can hardly expect that one of a bunch of guys at your department has the paper. Sure, for applied (or even - experimental) sciences it is different.

How would you know about a paper you don't have and doesn't have any cites and is 50 years old? How can a paper be perennial if it doesn't have any cites? A paper being perennial is, I'd argue, defined by getting cites on a regular basis even after many years. Who does theoretical physics / mathematics and doesn't have access to a university library? And don't say Ramanujan, people in those circumstances wouldn't hav…

I know of at least one person who is doing lots of science / scientific projects/experiments for themselves and does not have access via uni libraries etc. but needs to consult scientific literature (as in, academic papers) fairly often. (Granted, the case does not fall within the aforementioned 'theor.phys. / mathematics' field.) They use http://reddit.com/r/scholar to ask for papers to be uploaded (it's a very nice and useful subreddit for those folk, I try to fill out some requests now and then).

Of course, 'knowing one person' is anecdotal / talk about bad representative samples, but I can attest to the fact that those people exist. (I don't know the details why that person in question cannot register under a public library; public libraries may not have subscriptions to their journals of interest perhaps.)

In any regard, there are cases where old theories / research were dug up by contemporary researchers who realized that those original models were useful for their modern research etc. [citation needed, could dig something up, but googling is probably more effective than asking in this case.]

Re: Introducing The Paper Bay

#59

Post by stared »

roel_v wrote: post #56
stared wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't as simple, as a perennial paper in mathematics does not have to be even famous. It may have even not cites (yet). And I'm speaking of my experience (theoretical physics). Moreover, then you can hardly expect that one of a bunch of guys at your department has the paper. Sure, for applied (or even - experimental) sciences it is different.

How would you know about a paper you don't have and doesn't have any cites and is 50 years old? How can a paper be perennial if it doesn't have any cites? A paper being perennial is, I'd argue, defined by getting cites on a regular basis even after many years. Who does theoretical physics / mathematics and doesn't have access to a university library? And don't say Ramanujan, people in those circumstances wouldn't hav…

> How would you know about a paper you don't have and doesn't have any cites and is 50 years old?

Google Scholar?

> How can a paper be perennial if it doesn't have any cites?

It was a bit exaggerated. But _in mathematics_ typical span of citation accumulation is decades, not years. And typical total citation count is way lower than in, say, biology.

> A paper being perennial is, I'd argue, defined by getting cites on a regular basis even after many years.

No. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/perennial

Don't confuse it with "popular" or even "with lasting popularity".

Again, in mathematics things (almost) do not age...

Re: Introducing The Paper Bay

#60

Post by roel_v »

stared wrote: post #59
roel_v wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you know about a paper you don't have and doesn't have any cites and is 50 years old? How can a paper be perennial if it doesn't have any cites? A paper being perennial is, I'd argue, defined by getting cites on a regular basis even after many years. Who does theoretical physics / mathematics and doesn't have access to a university library? And don't say Ramanujan, people in those circumstances wouldn't hav…

> How would you know about a paper you don't have and doesn't have any cites and is 50 years old? Google Scholar? > How can a paper be perennial if it doesn't have any cites? It was a bit exaggerated. But _in mathematics_ typical span of citation accumulation is decades, not years. And typical total citation count is way lower than in, say, biology. > A paper being perennial is, I'd argue, defined by getting cites on…

"But _in mathematics_ typical span of citation accumulation is decades, not years. And typical total citation count is way lower than in, say, biology."

Sure, I'll accept that. My point is that some people must have it apart from the archives of the university it was first published at. Again, I'm talking about the actual, practical issues here, not the "what might happen". Not to turn this into an ad hominem, but are you an academic? How often do you have real problems (as opposed to 'annoyed because I have to spend 15 minutes') finding the content of papers?

"No. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/perennial Don't confuse it with "popular" or even "with lasting popularity"."

By that definition, anything written is perennial. In the context of a book/movie/paper being 'perennial', 'perennial' means 'still after a relatively long amount of time enjoys some form of popularity or following'. Just because a dictionary doesn't define it into that nuance, doesn't make it not true.

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