Massive Dosing - the LSD Thumbprint • Hacker News Board

Re: Massive Dosing - the LSD Thumbprint

#61

Post by gnosis » Wed, Feb 13, 2013, 3:11 AM UTC

nessus42 wrote: post #33

oscilloscope wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Characterizing a subjective experience is not the same as experiencing the phenomena. If I look at brainwave data of a monk meditating, my experience is of looking at and interpreting data. I am not meditating.

The canonical thought experiment from philosophy is called "The Knowledge Argument". In it, you are asked to imagine a super-intelligent but color-blind since birth scientist named Mary who knows everything there is to know about human perception from a scientific point of view. (Btw, she's completely color-blind; she only sees in black & white.) Since she knows everything there is to know, surely she knows what it's…

"Mary who knows everything there is to know about human perception from a scientific point of view. ... Since she knows everything there is to know"

The second assertion does not necessarily follow from the first.

There may well be more to understanding something than what science can know about it.

Also, there's something that analytic philosophers like to call "qualia", which is what it's like to experience something. That's one thing that would be missing from the above account.

To take another example: I could know quite a lot about the neurological processes that underly the sensation of pain in the human nervous system and the brain. However, such knowledge is very different from the sensation of pain itself.

Same with sex. You can read up about its physiology all you like, but your knowledge of it is going to be of a quite different order from someone who's actually had sex.

Re: Massive Dosing - the LSD Thumbprint

#62

Post by dhimes » Wed, Feb 13, 2013, 3:12 AM UTC

eksith wrote: post #47

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anything with the phrase (paraphrasing) "but I must warn you, you must be surrounded by evolved people" sounds so incredibly condescending and pretentious it really shows how these people see themselves as superior to others, like your friend who travels a lot and brings it up all the time. Except his stories are rational and meaningful, while stories about tripping balls are so subjective, they're meaningless. Yes,…

>Anything with the phrase (paraphrasing) "but I must warn you, you must be surrounded by evolved people" sounds so incredibly condescending and pretentious it really shows how these people see themselves as superior to others That's actually the complete opposite of what he said. Your paraphrase and the rest of your post was full of transference. I don't know what bad experiences you had with stoners and/or hippies,…

I think he was specifically targeting the use of the word 'evolved' instead of, say, 'experienced' (as in people who have tripped balls before).

Re: Massive Dosing - the LSD Thumbprint

#63

Post by michaelochurch » Wed, Feb 13, 2013, 3:12 AM UTC

jpdoctor wrote: post #49

PavlovsCat wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A human being is a part of a whole, called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest... a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by wi…

> Also, what is "impaired cognition"? Compared to what, exactly? How about this for an operational definition: When you open your eyes and are seeing shit that isn't there, you're suffering from impaired cognition. It's really not that difficult, unless you want it to be. Edit: OK Fine. I give up: It's mysterious cosmic stuff that puts you in touch with the everlasting oneness of all humans and the universe. Good luc…

Actually, there's an important (and under-appreciated) difference between visuals and hallucinations.

Visuals are when you see patterns, fractals, etc. You don't need to use drugs to get that. Use the latest brainwave synch. technologies and aim for low-theta. Entirely safe, produces closed-eye visuals in the dark. You're lingering in a state similar to that which occurs before you go to sleep. It's interesting, but ultimately visuals are just artifacts.

Hallucinations are when you actually believe what you're seeing is real. IMO that's undesirable and it can obviously be extremely dangerous (except in the dream state).

Re: Massive Dosing - the LSD Thumbprint

#64

Post by dhimes » Wed, Feb 13, 2013, 3:13 AM UTC

javajosh wrote: post #48

Well, shit. A thumbprint is pretty intense, but you haven't really done LSD unless you've done a handprint . With both hands. You pass through death and eternity to become LISP .

Naw, man, you gotta do lines. Only then can you become a qubit.

Re: Massive Dosing - the LSD Thumbprint

#65

Post by michaelochurch » Wed, Feb 13, 2013, 3:17 AM UTC

bloaf wrote: post #53

michaelochurch wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tend to think of these things as karmic accelerators. The karma that would usually ripen over 2 years is, instead, experienced in 12 hours. If that karma is negative, that might take the form of an immediate psychotic crisis instead of some longer-to-unfold variety that might, due to time, be more manageable. My personal belief is that, moreso than any religious belief, it's important to manage the karma we experie…

I have always thought LSD works in this way: Your brain gets data, and has models of how all the data fits together. For example, if you look at someone you don't know, your brain will get the data "appearance" and plug it into the model "assorted stereotypes" and get out some expectations about who that stranger is. What LSD does is perturb those models of how data fits together. If your models are in line with real…

I disagree, if only because I think some people diverge farther from reality when they take these drugs. I know some people who've gone from "slightly weird" to derelict insanity because of them.

If a person's already on a bad course, then psychedelics (under typical recreational use patterns) are going to throw this person farther out into space. The negative experience, in this case, isn't that person being ripped back into reality, but going even further away from it.

Re: Massive Dosing - the LSD Thumbprint

#66

Post by michaelochurch » Wed, Feb 13, 2013, 3:20 AM UTC

chimpinee wrote: post #58

michaelochurch wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no shortcut to being an interesting and clever person. You gotta put the hours in. Agree absolutely. My opinion is that "experience" is just a small part of being spiritual, at least on this side of death. It's nice, but it shouldn't be the primary goal. Experience without a larger context is just insanity.

I agree that people usually misinterpret their experiences where psychedelics and religion are concerned. However it's worth noting that in striving to create and discover interesting things one becomes vulnerable to all manner of possible obsessions and addictions -- most call it going 'crazy' (e.g. Beethoven, van Gogh, Tesla, Michelangelo, Schumann, John Nash and presumably many who ceased to function altogether in…

One wonders, for example, if the Beatles or Steve Jobs, notwithstanding their hard work, could ever have become what they did if they hadn't also taken LSD at some point.

Honestly? I think that people who start using these drugs end up giving them too much credit. At some point, they start attributing all interesting or creative thoughts they have to the use of drugs when, while the drug experiences played a role, they weren't as primary as the person (due to the tendency to overvalue intense experiences in explaining personal traits) thinks.

Re: Massive Dosing - the LSD Thumbprint

#67

Post by gnosis » Wed, Feb 13, 2013, 3:21 AM UTC

darius42 wrote: post #38

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anything with the phrase (paraphrasing) "but I must warn you, you must be surrounded by evolved people" sounds so incredibly condescending and pretentious it really shows how these people see themselves as superior to others, like your friend who travels a lot and brings it up all the time. Except his stories are rational and meaningful, while stories about tripping balls are so subjective, they're meaningless. Yes,…

When I did 2 hits of acid, I had the exact opposite experience of seeing God. The fact that such a tiny amount of a mere chemical could effect my "soul" so profoundly was proof positive that the soul is completely material. I already believed this intellectually, but this experience solidified this knowledge into my very being. So personally, I would recommended experimenting with a psychedelic or two for those who w…

"When I did 2 hits of acid, I had the exact opposite experience of seeing God. The fact that such a tiny amount of a mere chemical could effect my "soul" so profoundly was proof positive that the soul is completely material."

Your so-called "soul" may in fact be "completely material", but I don't think what you describe above proves it.

There was a famous mystic who once said something like, "when you put a lit match to cotton, it is not the fire that burns the cotton, but God."

Relating it back to your account, how can you know if it was in fact the chemical that changed your consciousness and not the grace of God (or gods, or the devil, some alient, or the program/programmer running your virtual reality, etc).

There could be some cause that caused you to both take the chemical and to have the experience. Or they could be caused by two independent things, with the experiences just happening to succeed one another in time (see Hume's critique of causality).

Finally, I'm not a physicist, but from what I've read, even physicists now have a lot of trouble defining "matter" as such. I don't think they even use the term much at all anymore. And, whatever reality happens to be, it might be infinitely divisible, and ultimately not completely understandable or knowable as far as science is concerned. At the very least, science now does not have a full understanding of it, and to say that science will one day have such a full understanding is merely an expression of faith.

Re: Massive Dosing - the LSD Thumbprint

#68

Post by tytyty » Wed, Feb 13, 2013, 3:22 AM UTC

I take psychedelics on a regular basis. Usually a couple of times a month. Although I've done several hundred micrograms (there is really no way of knowing) of LSD at once, I also really enjoy experimenting with smaller doses and casually micro-dosing on work days.

I happen to be a software engineer and try to apply my knowledge of "machines" to the psychedelic experience. While I don't believe in anything supernatural, I do think that there might be a chance that psychedelics, especially LSD, help your consciousness tap into some deeper abstractions of the human mind, maybe even the universe.

Let me explain that insane claim as best I can:

There is a great book on psychology that was published recently called: Thinking Fast and Slow. In summary, it goes into great detail about two systems of the human mind. System 1, the immediate reaction system, and system 2 which is responsible for computing and solving problems.

When your brain is in system 2 mode (solve 17 x 54 in your head) your heart rate increases, your pupils dilate, and your brain starts consuming glucose. It's doing work. System 1 is the trained mind that recognizes facial gestures and stuff infinitely more complex than a simple math equation. It reacts to danger before you are consciously aware of danger.

I would speculate that LSD turns on System 2 where normally my System 1 brain would give me an immediate response. Your mind starts processing information differently. This cascades into an incredible effect on your emotional awareness, creativity, introspection, insights, and behaviors both physical and cognitive.

I wonder if these extreme doses of LSD eliminate your minds ability to process normal sensory input. What you're left with are low level systems. You're self-awareness is turned off, but you are left with cognitive factories still churning away.

Imagine something sad that happened to you once. Now imagine the visual component is gone, the memory of language gone. You're left with the actual chemical response of the memory. Now do the inverse for something positive. That's what ego-loss is like. You're swimming in a sea of emotions as your brain randomly wanders off into different states, sometimes many at once, sometimes you get stuck in one. Sometimes that state is incredible panic, sometimes you're crying-laughing for 10 minutes straight. This is a common experience I've had on measly 300-500ug doses.

As for the universe claim, as far fetched as it sounds, maybe some of these systems are abstractions of the universal systems. What we are perceiving in these insane states are also little clues into how the universe organizes itself and a peek at something pre-selfawareness.

That last paragraph is all bull-shit heresy but even with my lighter doses I've had remarkable insights. Things that have changed my life in incredible ways. It's like a Pi of molecules or some shit.

edit: grammar

Re: Massive Dosing - the LSD Thumbprint

#69

Post by zensavona » Wed, Feb 13, 2013, 3:22 AM UTC

michaelochurch wrote: post #44

orasis wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The insights available through meditation and psychedelics are insights into the workings of conceptualization and the odd subject/object split we habitually do with thought and language. Being able to experience reality below the lens of conceptualization is the most powerful experience of my life. I can now clearly see the fake reality created instantly by thought and the truth that there is only this moment of exp…

I did this through the path of meditation, but I know others who have used psychedelics to similar ends. Based on what I've read and observed, the people who get real benefit out of psychedelics are those who are already fairly meditative people, who use them in reasonable settings (with people they trust) and know what they are doing. There clearly are people who are able to make good use of these chemicals, but the…

Who's talking about using LSD as a party drug? It's certainly not even slightly suggested in the posted article or this response.

Re: Massive Dosing - the LSD Thumbprint

#70

Post by fumar » Wed, Feb 13, 2013, 3:23 AM UTC

LSD is an intense drug that alters ones brain chemistry. We are those neurons and synapses. When they change, we change.

LSD will alter one's perspectives. Maybe the correct statement is, add more perspectives.