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The Web Is Becoming Smalltalk

zacharyvoase.com

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Re: The Web Is Becoming Smalltalk

#51

Post by crazygringo »

hcarvalhoalves wrote: post #32

> Now that conventions are moving towards ‘single-page’ web apps, the concept of a ‘page’ is losing its special meaning. The web is so broken. The whole "web app" concept is just a giant hack. The job of us web developers today consists in employing a never ending pile of hacks (e.g. AJAX, long-pooling, semi-broken languages and implementations, non-standard vendor APIs) to fight a browser into submission so it can b…

> I would rather take a web based on open APIs and rich clients (running native code) than the kludges we have today.

But that exists. It's called native programs, which are free to access web API's and whatnot just as much as any browser is.

The whole point of the web is you don't have to download software, you don't have to store your data locally. Sure, it's a pain to support the quirks of different browsers and some badly designed web standards, but I'll take that any day over having to program for entirely different operating systems. I fail to see how web apps are a hack at all. Sure, they're not the "original purpose" of the web, but they work awfully well for things like GMail, GDocs, GMaps, etc. -- I'm awfully happy to have all these inside of browser tabs, instead of cluttering up my machine with more installed apps.

Re: The Web Is Becoming Smalltalk

#52

Post by hcarvalhoalves »

crazygringo wrote: post #51
hcarvalhoalves wrote: post #32

> Now that conventions are moving towards ‘single-page’ web apps, the concept of a ‘page’ is losing its special meaning. The web is so broken. The whole "web app" concept is just a giant hack. The job of us web developers today consists in employing a never ending pile of hacks (e.g. AJAX, long-pooling, semi-broken languages and implementations, non-standard vendor APIs) to fight a browser into submission so it can b…

> I would rather take a web based on open APIs and rich clients (running native code) than the kludges we have today. But that exists. It's called native programs, which are free to access web API's and whatnot just as much as any browser is. The whole point of the web is you don't have to download software, you don't have to store your data locally. Sure, it's a pain to support the quirks of different browsers and s…

> I fail to see how web apps are a hack at all. (...) Sure, they're not the "original purpose" of the web, but they work awfully well for things like GMail, GDocs, GMaps, etc.

Well, you realize all the products you mention were only possible because someone figured out a hack (XMLHttpRequest), and now everybody relies on something that wasn't thought out in any shape or form? Can you see how fragile is the software stack an entire web industry is basing itself on?

Also, I don't find GMail, GDocs or GMaps the epitome of good UI and interaction models, I can point a handful of quirks (GDocs is particularly bad.). I don't think these products withstand a round of user testing, people just take it for granted because they are provided for free. When a better alternative shows up (Sparrow), people flock to it even if it's a paid app. Of course, Google killed it, they are web app zealots after all and need the revenue from the ads.

Re: The Web Is Becoming Smalltalk

#53

Post by error54 »

cdcarter wrote: post #50
error54 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are general tools. I want to know what tools people use for debugging Javascript that are similar to Chrome Developer tools or Firefox's Firebug.

I believe the implication there was that the debugging process is "try, try again".

Haha ah thanks for the clarification cdcarter. That is a process I know all too well when debugging code in Internet Explorer 8.

Re: The Web Is Becoming Smalltalk

#54

Post by pjmlp »

hcarvalhoalves wrote: post #47
IEatShortPeople wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with your idea of running native code on the client as a replacement for the web in the context of laptops and desktops. The app store works because apple curates it. In the Android marketplace, many applications are viruses ( http://www.androidguys.com/2012/12/14/lookout-18-million-inf... ). If more than 9-10% of laptops and desktops had access to the app store, I would imagine that malware would be a mor…

Strictly speaking, native clients have nothing to do with app stores or speed. I just mentioned mobile apps and some software available in the Mac App Store as success cases because native clients backed by HTTP APIs seem to be a much saner development environment than shoehorning an app to run inside a browser, which is limited to one language, crappy APIs, broken interaction models and lack of standards. > On the w…

This is what I, after years of web development consulting, now advocate.

The browser should be left for documents.

The only way to provide the best user experience and operating system integration is via native applications, regardless of the environment, which communicate via network protocols.

Re: The Web Is Becoming Smalltalk

#55

Post by gamblor956 »

hcarvalhoalves wrote: post #52
crazygringo wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would rather take a web based on open APIs and rich clients (running native code) than the kludges we have today. But that exists. It's called native programs, which are free to access web API's and whatnot just as much as any browser is. The whole point of the web is you don't have to download software, you don't have to store your data locally. Sure, it's a pain to support the quirks of different browsers and s…

> I fail to see how web apps are a hack at all. (...) Sure, they're not the "original purpose" of the web, but they work awfully well for things like GMail, GDocs, GMaps, etc. Well, you realize all the products you mention were only possible because someone figured out a hack (XMLHttpRequest), and now everybody relies on something that wasn't thought out in any shape or form? Can you see how fragile is the software s…

XMLHttpRequest is not a hack. It was deliberately developed by Microsoft as part of Internet Explorer to enable desktop-like functionality in Outlook Web Access. [http://www.alexhopmann.com/xmlhttp.htm]. It was then copied by Netscape, and it spread from there.

Re: The Web Is Becoming Smalltalk

#56

Post by hcarvalhoalves »

gamblor956 wrote: post #55
hcarvalhoalves wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I fail to see how web apps are a hack at all. (...) Sure, they're not the "original purpose" of the web, but they work awfully well for things like GMail, GDocs, GMaps, etc. Well, you realize all the products you mention were only possible because someone figured out a hack (XMLHttpRequest), and now everybody relies on something that wasn't thought out in any shape or form? Can you see how fragile is the software s…

XMLHttpRequest is not a hack. It was deliberately developed by Microsoft as part of Internet Explorer to enable desktop-like functionality in Outlook Web Access. [ http://www.alexhopmann.com/xmlhttp.htm ]. It was then copied by Netscape, and it spread from there.

> XMLHttpRequest is not a hack. It was deliberately developed by Microsoft as part of Internet Explorer to enable desktop-like functionality in Outlook Web Access.

I believe you tried to correct me, but you proved my point even further.

Desktop-like functionality on a software meant to navigate between linked documents is simply a broken interaction model.

Re: The Web Is Becoming Smalltalk

#58

Post by bad_user »

hcarvalhoalves wrote: post #52
crazygringo wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would rather take a web based on open APIs and rich clients (running native code) than the kludges we have today. But that exists. It's called native programs, which are free to access web API's and whatnot just as much as any browser is. The whole point of the web is you don't have to download software, you don't have to store your data locally. Sure, it's a pain to support the quirks of different browsers and s…

> I fail to see how web apps are a hack at all. (...) Sure, they're not the "original purpose" of the web, but they work awfully well for things like GMail, GDocs, GMaps, etc. Well, you realize all the products you mention were only possible because someone figured out a hack (XMLHttpRequest), and now everybody relies on something that wasn't thought out in any shape or form? Can you see how fragile is the software s…

Arguments about the hacky-ness and fragility of web apps are always extremely silly.

Unix was also a hack. C was also a hack. Windows 95 was also a hack. Windows NT had better design, but with hacks bolted on to make it compatible with Win 9X. Java was a hack. Linux was a hack. The Internet itself is the biggest hack of all.

In fact I dare you to name one successful platform that wasn't a hack. Because from where I'm standing, the platforms that weren't hacks failed, in addition to being on the whole horrible.

> I don't find GMail, GDocs or GMaps the epitome of good UI and interaction models, I can point a handful of quirks

With all those quirks, GMail killed the desktop email client for me. For the last 4 years I haven't been able to use any other client. Even on my iPad, before the latest "native" GMail on iOS I was using the web version, simply because Apple's Mail app wasn't doing threaded conversations well.

For all the quirks of the web version of Google Maps, at least it is available everywhere. Just ask the poor schmucks that were in a hurry to upgrade to iOS 6.

Same argument goes for GDocs. It's available everywhere and it allows for efficient collaborative editing. You just open a browser and you're good to go. It doesn't even have to be your browser. I do value this a lot.

> I don't think these products withstand a round of user testing, people just take it for granted because they are provided for free.

I'm a Google Apps customer and I also pay for Google Drive, if it matters. And quite the contrary, people receiving stuff for free tend to be more self-entitled and critical. That people don't voice too many negative opinions on these products is kind of shocking, because either Google has a really good PR department or these products do in fact satisfy most users.

> When a better alternative shows up (Sparrow), people flock to it even if it's a paid app

For what is worth, I didn't.

Re: The Web Is Becoming Smalltalk

#59

Post by cpeterso »

hcarvalhoalves wrote: post #32

> Now that conventions are moving towards ‘single-page’ web apps, the concept of a ‘page’ is losing its special meaning. The web is so broken. The whole "web app" concept is just a giant hack. The job of us web developers today consists in employing a never ending pile of hacks (e.g. AJAX, long-pooling, semi-broken languages and implementations, non-standard vendor APIs) to fight a browser into submission so it can b…

I don't disagree, but the web has a huge advantage over native applications: deployment. Installation is a nop. Every user has the latest version. The same website will (probably) work on an iPad and a Windows PC. Agile companies like Facebook roll out multiple releases each day. Imagine if Microsoft Word wanted to install an update every day! :)

Re: The Web Is Becoming Smalltalk

#60

Post by njharman »

calinet6 wrote: post #28

I read the title and had some first thoughts spring to mind, and didn't reach the same conclusion as the author. While cool it was, it was limited in reach, and I think you could go further with this analogy. Treat every web site or address or endpoint as an object. Allow message passing as though the web were simply a single object-oriented system resident on the same computer. The definitions of the APIs are kept a…

You just described http. Every URL is am object and the post,put, et al are the messages.
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