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German Fascination With Degrees Claims Latest Victim: Education Minister

nytimes.com

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Re: German Fascination With Degrees Claims Latest Victim: Education Minister

#81

Post by fhars »

netrus wrote: post #43
fhars wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strictly speaking, in Germany you don't use the PhD (Dr.) with your name, you just use your full name. Getting a "Dr." is a name change, while getting a diploma or masters degree is not.

Strictly speaking, it's not. You can write your PhD in your passport (only in the long form, like "Dr. med.") in a separate field, but you don't have to, and it won't be part of your name anyway. Source: http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/pa_g_1986/__4.html [Law in German]

Then why does my German national id card have the text "Dr. Hars" (short form, without the "rer. nat.") in the field with the label "Name/Surname/Nom"?

Re: German Fascination With Degrees Claims Latest Victim: Education Minister

#82

Post by kintamanimatt »

drpgq wrote: post #77
jordanb wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chicago too. And the landowner can also be be ticketed by the police for not clearing his snow. It seems like the OP is from Scotland, where snow rarely falls and when it does, it doesn't stick around. I wonder if snow removal laws are more a matter of climate than culture.

Yeah as a Canadian, pretty much all cities can fine you if you don't clear your snow with in 24 hours. Ironically I just got back to Canada from Dresden yesterday and I didn't think much of the German efforts to clear their sidewalks.

So what happens if you're out of town for a few months and it snows hard in front of your property? How are you supposed to deal with that, or even know how badly it's snowed, while you're away?

Re: German Fascination With Degrees Claims Latest Victim: Education Minister

#83

Post by rmk2 »

cmarschner wrote: post #74
rmk2 wrote: post #59

This article seems to not mention another important fact for Schavan: If she loses the Doctorate, she will not have any degree whatsoever . The Doctorate is the only degree she ever did, she does not hold a Magister. (→ Grundständige Promotion) The English wikipedia entry has that added by now, however, it doesn't list any sources...so in that sense: http://www.heise.de/tp/blogs/8/153683 & http://www.wiwo.de/politik/…

She will still have a honorary doctorate of 4 universities, so technically she is still Dr.h.c.mult.

Yes, but for any other purpose, she will not have a degree that proves her own qualifications.

Re: German Fascination With Degrees Claims Latest Victim: Education Minister

#84

Post by fbuchinger »

kintamanimatt wrote: post #82
drpgq wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah as a Canadian, pretty much all cities can fine you if you don't clear your snow with in 24 hours. Ironically I just got back to Canada from Dresden yesterday and I didn't think much of the German efforts to clear their sidewalks.

So what happens if you're out of town for a few months and it snows hard in front of your property? How are you supposed to deal with that, or even know how badly it's snowed, while you're away?

You simply commission a company for doing that... In the countryside neighbours might help each other

Re: German Fascination With Degrees Claims Latest Victim: Education Minister

#85

Post by ahoyhere »

cnvogel wrote: post #31

I don't think that Germans have a "Title-fetish", in general they couldn't care less. I'm working in engineering, having a Physics PhD myself, but titles are never mentioned in daily work. Politicians on the other hand had always tried to give themselves some additinal credibility by bragging about their alleged academic merits, but searching for plagiatism was not something anyone would seriously had thought to enda…

Germans definitely have a title fetish. So do Austrians, to a slightly lesser degree. For example, titles go on driver's licenses. They certainly do not in the US.

If you use the title "Prof" or "Doktor" when making a restaurant reservation, or getting pulled over for speeding, chances are very good you will get a better table, or escape without a ticket. The word that comes to mind for the stories I've heard from Dr. Dr's in Austria is "boot-licking."

Also, "Dr Dr" is a thing. My mother-in-law is one and people really say it to her, religiously, and not because she is a prima donna about it.

Don't forget, it's illegal in Germany for an American PhD to call himself "Dr" (and not talking about practicing medicine either). People have gotten into serious trouble because of this: http://chronicle.com/article/Whats-Up-Doc-German-Law/40636/

In America, the government officials responsible for that would be laughed out of town.

Re: German Fascination With Degrees Claims Latest Victim: Education Minister

#86

Post by anovikov »

Any formal system like that is bad because it's too easy to hack - and that's what they got. Good for America that you don't care much about degrees. After all, a day's long test task is enough to separate good candidates from bad for everything except maybe senior management positions.

Re: German Fascination With Degrees Claims Latest Victim: Education Minister

#87

Post by wnesensohn »

wolfgke wrote: post #48
maayank wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I understand from German friends you need a certificate from an "office management" school to do secretarial work. There are internships for the most mundane jobs. Not to attack, but as an outsider it certainly seems to me that Germany (as a generalization and especially outside the software industry) has a title fetish.

I live in Germany and I claim that Austria (Germany's neighbouring country) has a title fetish. Austria's title fetish is said to be a relict from Austro-Hungarian Monarchy times that has preserved there until today (although it is declining slowly). To give an example: on many tombstones on Austrian graveyards the official titles the person had are written; even more strange: for women even the title of their men is…

While your observations are definitely true for the "older" generations (the ones for which many tombstones had to be carved), I'd say that title fetish is fortunately declining quite rapidly.

For example, not so long ago it was common to call wifes of doctors "Frau Doktor", but I've never in my life heard a person Granted, there are still some strange titles floating around which do not mean much, but they're also fading away quickly. And even though many people may hold a title, my personal observation is that they're shown only very rarely.

So while Austrians had a strong title fetish, I wouldn't say that's neccessarily true anymore. Especially not for the upcoming generations. So don't expect too much title fetish in Austria, you might be disappointed. But be sure to visit the "Zentralfriedhof" in Vienna, it's one of the largest cemeteries in the world and walking through it is a wonderful journey through the past, packed with a plethora of stories.

Re: German Fascination With Degrees Claims Latest Victim: Education Minister

#88

Post by coldarchon »

rbanffy wrote: post #71
msvan wrote: post #12

If someone chooses to spend several years of her life only in order to get a few letters in front of her name, that's her problem. Meanwhile, the rest of us can get out there and do something productive. Degree obsession is a choice.

Many PhD's I know didn't work on their research for the extra letters on their business cards, but out of a genuine devotion to further our knowledge on their research subjects.

Exactly this devotion makes us Germans think people become a better politician when getting an academic title, having the devotion to make this world a better place by science might include devotion to make a better society by good politics.

Re: German Fascination With Degrees Claims Latest Victim: Education Minister

#89

Post by cmarschner »

drpgq wrote: post #79
woodpanel wrote: post #47

Germans place a greater premium on doctorates than Americans do as marks of distinction and erudition. [...] According to the Web site Research in Germany, about 25,000 Germans earn doctorates each year, the most in Europe and about twice the per capita rate of the United States. Visiting a university in Germany is almost free. More people having a "Diplom" degree means that if you want to stand out you have to aim f…

Do more Germans have Diplom degrees per capita than North Americans have undergraduate degrees? I was under the impression that more North Americans have undergraduate degrees than Germans Diploms, mainly because the Abitur is the bottleneck. In Canada now it seems everyone and their dog goes to university now.

It depends what types of schools you include. The "Diplom" and "Magister" closely resembles the US master's degree, so their proliferation is lower when comparing to _all_ degrees in other countries. However it has been replaced by BA/BS and MA/MS between 2005 and 2010, so you can expect more BAs to enter the labor market today. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abitur it states that 43% of an age group get the Abitur, and most of them attend university according to http://www.kmk.org/fileadmin/pdf/PresseUndAktuelles/2011/eag.... That document also states that some 28% of the population get a university (undergratuate/graduate) degree today. On the other hand, more people do apprenticeships in Germany than in other countries (without nessaraily having an Abitur degree), and those apprenticeships are accompanied by classes and an associate degree which can be extended to a "meister" of some sort. Some studies are regarded as apprenticeship that would be taught at colleges in other countries (e.g. patient care). If you add those degrees they make up another 15% of an age group. So in total that's something like 43% which I think would be comparable to US numbers.

Re: German Fascination With Degrees Claims Latest Victim: Education Minister

#90

Post by raphman »

fhars wrote: post #81
netrus wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strictly speaking, it's not. You can write your PhD in your passport (only in the long form, like "Dr. med.") in a separate field, but you don't have to, and it won't be part of your name anyway. Source: http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/pa_g_1986/__4.html [Law in German]

Then why does my German national id card have the text "Dr. Hars" (short form, without the "rer. nat.") in the field with the label "Name/Surname/Nom"?

Maybe because it is more efficient than reserving space on the card for something most people do not need?

http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/pa_g_1986/__4.html

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