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Gender Bias 101 For Mathematicians

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Re: Gender Bias 101 For Mathematicians

#61

Post by aptwebapps »

mhansen wrote: post #29
UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #12

The word "fact" is used extremely loosely in this article. While the first "fact" is in fact factual it then very quickly goes down the rabbit hole of personal opinion/perspective. By the time we get to "fact 3" the author isn't even pretending any more and the "fact" is just a bizarre "you're a mathematician, you can solve this!!1!" point... I'm happy to have a discussion about gender politics/equality, this article…

You might be interested that this is such a common way to derail conversations about privilege that it's made part of 'Derailing for Dummies'. http://birdofparadox.wordpress.com/derailing-for-dummies-goo...

Given that the author is a senior mathematician and cites studies freely means that at least part of what you linked to doesn't apply.

However, I think that the use of 'Fact' as a section heading was more a rhetorical device than anything else/

Re: Gender Bias 101 For Mathematicians

#62

Post by _Dude_ »

It's funny how 'sexism' is used as if it could only be against women. Let's just say it: a white straight middle class young male is a public enemy. Why doesn't she just solve one of those Millennium Prize Problems? That would be a really nice case against anti-women kind of sexism.

Re: Gender Bias 101 For Mathematicians

#63

Post by _Dude_ »

Claudus wrote: post #38

I've worked with a lot of programmers. Some of them have character flaws that make them unpleasant to work with. These character flaws do not affect their ability to "get the job done", but I'd rather not work with them and take steps to avoid doing so when possible. From a link in the article: Renowned conductors have asserted that female musicians have "smaller techniques," are more temperamental and are simply uns…

"The ONLY way that gender bias will ever end is to challenge these ideas and in fact show that these innate differences do not exist."

The problem is that if you really do proper scientific examination of mental capabilities between genders and races you might not like the results. Results might turn out to be ugly and incompatible with the modern democracy. What will we do then?

Re: Gender Bias 101 For Mathematicians

#64

Post by yummyfajitas »

UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #12

The word "fact" is used extremely loosely in this article. While the first "fact" is in fact factual it then very quickly goes down the rabbit hole of personal opinion/perspective. By the time we get to "fact 3" the author isn't even pretending any more and the "fact" is just a bizarre "you're a mathematician, you can solve this!!1!" point... I'm happy to have a discussion about gender politics/equality, this article…

Even the first fact is a bit biased. In controlled experiments that rarely go beyond changing names on resumes, you observe bias against women.

When you observe actual practice (with official and unofficial AA, hiring committees, and of course various statistical problems), you tend to observe bias in favor of women.

http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=12062&page=R1

The picture of what real life looks like is far from clear.

Re: Gender Bias 101 For Mathematicians

#65

Post by yummyfajitas »

mhansen wrote: post #29
UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #12

The word "fact" is used extremely loosely in this article. While the first "fact" is in fact factual it then very quickly goes down the rabbit hole of personal opinion/perspective. By the time we get to "fact 3" the author isn't even pretending any more and the "fact" is just a bizarre "you're a mathematician, you can solve this!!1!" point... I'm happy to have a discussion about gender politics/equality, this article…

You might be interested that this is such a common way to derail conversations about privilege that it's made part of 'Derailing for Dummies'. http://birdofparadox.wordpress.com/derailing-for-dummies-goo...

You might be interested that 'Derailing for Dummies' is nothing but a rhetorical escape hatch, used mainly to declare victory without actually making a logical argument.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Escape_hatch

Re: Gender Bias 101 For Mathematicians

#66

Post by PeterisP »

What's missing in the article - what the author wants to achieve.

I mean, I agree with the description of gender bias and the other stuff, I have seen events like this first hand, and I have reflectively noticed my own biases that were unfair, so I'd like to correct that.

But after the article, what would you like me (as a 'dude' in a science field) to do? Your own point #5 states that you do not want just to be 'heard and understood'; so what actions would you like to be the result of this?

Re: Gender Bias 101 For Mathematicians

#67

Post by andreasvc »

UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #47
andreasvc wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh come on, just substitute rebuttal or response for fact. Do you dismiss a FAQ because the questions aren't actually asked frequently?! I think we should be discussing the actual content, not the form of presentation.

But I did criticise the content? Everything after the first paragraph is directly criticising the content.

I'd say you dismissed the content, but I'd also say that, in your own words, you did it by going down "the rabbit hole of personal opinion/perspective" ...

Which is to say, you can't have much of a discussion if you only allow a recital of facts.

Re: Gender Bias 101 For Mathematicians

#68

Post by PeterisP »

Claudus wrote: post #38

I've worked with a lot of programmers. Some of them have character flaws that make them unpleasant to work with. These character flaws do not affect their ability to "get the job done", but I'd rather not work with them and take steps to avoid doing so when possible. From a link in the article: Renowned conductors have asserted that female musicians have "smaller techniques," are more temperamental and are simply uns…

Gender differences definitely do exist - the question to prove is if they are small or orthogonal to actual ability, or somehow relevant. For example, if a job position requires hauling refrigerators to customers, then the requirements do favor males, and a genetic subset of them with large body frames. The question is, if any of this actually applies to positions such as orchestra musician or mathematician?

There are many studies about significant differences between twins caused by a single gene expression. There are studies about differences in physical properties, mental abilities and inherited diseases linked to genes of ethnic/racial groups - I believe the Ashkenazi case is the most popular, but there are others. And there are numerous studies about male/female differences - for example, in expressiveness of agression, average temperament and different cooperate/defect-style decisions in game theory and econometrics experiments.

But it all is irrelevant - the whole concept of gender/race/etc equality is that it is grossly unfair to use group-membership to judge individuals, and we should evaluate each person on her/his own merits.

Re: Gender Bias 101 For Mathematicians

#69

Post by hugh4life »

" The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie—deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.

- JFK "

So, you're going to start your blogpost on sexism with a quote from JFK... how does that work?

http://www.newrepublic.com/blog/timothy-noah/100566/jfk-mons...

Re: Gender Bias 101 For Mathematicians

#70

Post by glomph »

sprash wrote: post #6

The average man is pumped full of a hormone called testosterone. This leads them to take more risks and have a generally more aggressive way of doing things. This fact has been scientifically proven over and over again. In a fast moving market with high competition you need these qualities hence it is no secret why in average males are more employable in tech than women. This is a healthy market response and has noth…

That is an outrageous claim. Do you have any references to it being proven 'over and over again'?
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