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German Fascination With Degrees Claims Latest Victim: Education Minister

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Re: German Fascination With Degrees Claims Latest Victim: Education Minister

#31

Post by cnvogel »

I don't think that Germans have a "Title-fetish", in general they couldn't care less. I'm working in engineering, having a Physics PhD myself, but titles are never mentioned in daily work.

Politicians on the other hand had always tried to give themselves some additinal credibility by bragging about their alleged academic merits, but searching for plagiatism was not something anyone would seriously had thought to endanger politicians careers.

I mean, it was fun to try and hunt down politicians theses but hardly would have anyone expected that a politician could loose his mandate over them. Furthermore these theses most often had been written in "the old days", and were available only on special request from a few libraries where they were collecting dust for years in some non-publicly-accessible storage room for books no one ever borrows.

But then came Karl Theodor zu Guttenberg, whose thesis (written just 2007) started the whole debate about misgotten degrees in 2011. He had dismissed all charges about having cheated with unprecedented arrogance. Even though claiming to live up to higher standards, himself being a whealthy aristocrat, he had wholesale-copy-pasted the whole work from undisclosed sources, some even produced by the parliament's research service for him.

By additionally handling the resulting public-relations disaster pretty inapt, he gave a unbelieveably strong boost to the plagiatism-finders, who normally would have been ridiculed as nickpicking footnote and quotation-mark-counters. Now they were the judges for the integrity of a large number of public persons.

Anette Schavan is only one of many persons accused of copying a relatively few paragraphs in her thesis, not even on the same scale as Karl-Theodor, this theses would never have created the current public outcry if not preceeded by Karl-Theodor's.

And she's even defended by a lot of academics that claim that this amount of un-disclosed copying, 30 years ago, would be on a level that's would not warrant the whole process that has now started and led to her demissal. I mean, she probably has written that manuscript on a mechanical typewriter, with drafts written by hand, not assisted by a software marking handling quotations automatically!

But universities are under a high pressure to show a merciless approach in re-evaluating these theses, and unfortunately there isn't even a limitation-period after which given titles would be incontestable, and hence what appears to be the current obsession with titles in Germany.

-- References :-)

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl-Theodor_zu_Guttenberg#Doct...

- The "Guttenplag" wiki has a graph (and statistics): 94% of pages, 64% of lines have copies of foreign text without attribution: http://de.guttenplag.wikia.com/wiki/GuttenPlag_Wiki

- This side shows pages in red that contain foreign material without attribution: http://schavanplag.wordpress.com/

Re: German Fascination With Degrees Claims Latest Victim: Education Minister

#32

Post by fauigerzigerk »

doktrin wrote: post #3

> Many Germans believe the scandals are rooted in their abiding respect, and even lust, for academic accolades, including the use of Prof. before Dr. and occasionally Dr. DR. for those with two doctoral degrees. > Prof. Dr. Wanka got her doctorate in 1980, the same year as Dr. Schavan. While the title-compounding effect did strike me as comical, this did force me to reflect a bit on our own worship of pedigree. Anyon…

Not to speak of the incredible levels of debt people are ready to incur for that degree. It can't be that bit of additional support a university setting will provide compared to self study.

Re: German Fascination With Degrees Claims Latest Victim: Education Minister

#33

Post by fhars »

konstruktor wrote: post #21
cmarschner wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point. For decades the education system in Germany tried to eradicate differences between universities. For the longest time there was also no separate bachelors degree. Getting a doctorate was therefore the only way to distinguish yourself from the student masses. This has changed in the past years after the "Bologna reforms" have replaced the German diploma by the international bachelors/masters system and sin…

Let me delve into the speculation about culture a bit more: Back in the day of the emperors/kings, titles and medals were were an extremely cheap way of rewarding somebody without actually paying them. What this incentive system needed to work was a society that respected those titles, so you were and and even today are allowed to use those titles (examples: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nichtakademischer_Titel ). Thi…

Strictly speaking, in Germany you don't use the PhD (Dr.) with your name, you just use your full name. Getting a "Dr." is a name change, while getting a diploma or masters degree is not.

Re: German Fascination With Degrees Claims Latest Victim: Education Minister

#34

Post by michaelt »

adulau wrote: post #13
raphman wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the title is quite misleading. While there are a few people who pursue a PhD purely for its status, this was probably not the case for Annette Schavan.

I don't know if my experiment is valid but looking at the collected business cards (~1200) from the past years. 90% of the business cards with Ing, Prof titles and alike are mainly from Germany. Looking at the German wikipedia page about Academic degrees http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akademischer_Grad compared to the other languages. I don't know if they run for its status but at least they showed those titles on thei…

I once read an opinion piece in a British engineering journal that suggested one of the reasons Germany is such an engineering powerhouse is in Germany 'engineer' is roughly equivalent in status to 'doctor' while in the UK it's conflated with 'mechanic/repair man' or at best 'office worker'.

Re: German Fascination With Degrees Claims Latest Victim: Education Minister

#35

Post by PeterisP »

pilooch wrote: post #20
raphman wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This hugely depends on the field of research and the individual research groups. Medicine is traditionally very hierarchical - mathematics or computer science not so. Could you elaborate on the detrimental effects?

sure, I refer to computer science btw. Detrimental effects that I could witness: - Prof. are secured in their large offices, hard to get in touch with. This leads to useless work or idle students, waiting for feedback, or picking up the wrong problem, solution or conference. - Full dependency on the Prof (e.g. for funding, to get a position, ...) - Students don't voice their concern much, as they need Prof. support.…

Well, the current funding systems in many countries naturally result in Prof's being unaccessible, and it has nothing to do with the offices. A well respected researcher (at the time working in Germany IIRC) told me "Professor's here don't have time to write research papers, they write grant proposals".

Re: German Fascination With Degrees Claims Latest Victim: Education Minister

#36

Post by nagrom »

cnvogel wrote: post #31

I don't think that Germans have a "Title-fetish", in general they couldn't care less. I'm working in engineering, having a Physics PhD myself, but titles are never mentioned in daily work. Politicians on the other hand had always tried to give themselves some additinal credibility by bragging about their alleged academic merits, but searching for plagiatism was not something anyone would seriously had thought to enda…

My own feeling is that Germans guard quite strongly their societal and cultural goods; advanced degrees are a status indicator and it's not a surprise that incorrectly-gained degrees cause outrage to me. Perceived pollution in the shared consciousness inevitably causes punishment and expulsion.

Other ways in which Germans guard their societal structure:

-- highly regulated Sunday opening hours, even in big cities, ostensibly to protect low status workers.

-- strong rules regarding jay walking; it's the only country where other pedestrians got upset with me for crossing the street incorrectly.

-- strict adherence to rules and procedures in aspects of life that most cultures don't care about (clear your sidewalk of snow and ride your bicycle only on the correct side of the sidewalk, for example).

-- strict adherence to a close family model that promotes appropriate education, shared meals and shared community endeavours.

All these things make up a strong societal structure (if a little inflexible). I believe that there is a national desire for a straightforward, trustworthy communal structure. The 'obsession with titles' is simply a facet of the desire for a strong shared community which can act as a basis for a productive society. If people assume titles that they do not deserve then they reduce the quality of societal markers, make communal life more difficult and thus reduce productivity and progress. Add that to the somewhat natural tendency to tear apart any person of previously high societal status, and you have the current climate of Germans checking all advanced degrees (and to an extent, the British checking all the expenses claims of their own politicians).

Re: German Fascination With Degrees Claims Latest Victim: Education Minister

#37

Post by maayank »

cnvogel wrote: post #31

I don't think that Germans have a "Title-fetish", in general they couldn't care less. I'm working in engineering, having a Physics PhD myself, but titles are never mentioned in daily work. Politicians on the other hand had always tried to give themselves some additinal credibility by bragging about their alleged academic merits, but searching for plagiatism was not something anyone would seriously had thought to enda…

From what I understand from German friends you need a certificate from an "office management" school to do secretarial work. There are internships for the most mundane jobs. Not to attack, but as an outsider it certainly seems to me that Germany (as a generalization and especially outside the software industry) has a title fetish.

Re: German Fascination With Degrees Claims Latest Victim: Education Minister

#38

Post by raphman »

maayank wrote: post #37
cnvogel wrote: post #31

I don't think that Germans have a "Title-fetish", in general they couldn't care less. I'm working in engineering, having a Physics PhD myself, but titles are never mentioned in daily work. Politicians on the other hand had always tried to give themselves some additinal credibility by bragging about their alleged academic merits, but searching for plagiatism was not something anyone would seriously had thought to enda…

From what I understand from German friends you need a certificate from an "office management" school to do secretarial work. There are internships for the most mundane jobs. Not to attack, but as an outsider it certainly seems to me that Germany (as a generalization and especially outside the software industry) has a title fetish.

No. Having a certificate is helpful but not required. For office management and several other jobs you have the choice between attending a specialized school or doing an apprenticeship in conjunction with attending a vocational school [1].

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_education_system

Re: German Fascination With Degrees Claims Latest Victim: Education Minister

#39

Post by raphman »

floppyspinner wrote: post #22

This whole discussion reminds me of Kurt Vonnegut's Player Piano. Sadly no such reference has been made yet. Maybe that's because not a lot of Germans have read it. Anyway, it sheds the whole discussion in a new light. The person in charge of education and research should not plagiarize, no doubt, but in general, if a person proves consistently that they can do their job, isn't the degree system that's supposed to de…

The issue here is not primarily that the minister for education and science should have a PhD.

The scandal here is that Annette Schavan claims that she did not plagiarize when it is obvious that she did. When the university rescinded her doctorate, she announced to sue it. A minister who is unable to accept a university's (rightful) decision undermines their independence.

For me, the most egregious part of this affair was that several officials of big research organizations - who get a majority of their budget from the federal ministry - defended Schavan and attacked the university.

Re: German Fascination With Degrees Claims Latest Victim: Education Minister

#40

Post by Loic »

maayank wrote: post #37
cnvogel wrote: post #31

I don't think that Germans have a "Title-fetish", in general they couldn't care less. I'm working in engineering, having a Physics PhD myself, but titles are never mentioned in daily work. Politicians on the other hand had always tried to give themselves some additinal credibility by bragging about their alleged academic merits, but searching for plagiatism was not something anyone would seriously had thought to enda…

From what I understand from German friends you need a certificate from an "office management" school to do secretarial work. There are internships for the most mundane jobs. Not to attack, but as an outsider it certainly seems to me that Germany (as a generalization and especially outside the software industry) has a title fetish.

It is not title fetishism, it is quality control and it is very good. This means that when you want to have someone working for you, you can be ensured the person as the adequate formation. I am French, having spent a couple of years now in Germany, some in Denmark and before some times in the US, I can tell you this is wonderful. If you need someone to fix something in your house, you can be sure he knows about it. Not like in the US where the guy was turning steaks at McDo before and just happen to now do plumbing for a small company because "He did well at the interview".

This level of "quality control" is everywhere in the German society.

For the titles themselves, this comes from the general German culture, I heavily recommend "The German Genius" by Peter Watson to understand it a bit more:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/18/books/review/Ladd-t.html?p...

http://www.amazon.de/German-Genius-Renaissance-Scientific-Re...

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