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German Fascination With Degrees Claims Latest Victim: Education Minister

nytimes.com

21–30 of 91 posts

Re: German Fascination With Degrees Claims Latest Victim: Education Minister

#21
post #3

> Many Germans believe the scandals are rooted in their abiding respect, and even lust, for academic accolades, including the use of Prof. before Dr. and occasionally Dr. DR. for those with two doctoral degrees. > Prof. Dr. Wanka got her doctorate in 1980, the same year as Dr. Schavan. While the title-compounding effect did strike me as comical, this did force me to reflect a bit on our own worship of pedigree. Anyon…

Good point. For decades the education system in Germany tried to eradicate differences between universities. For the longest time there was also no separate bachelors degree. Getting a doctorate was therefore the only way to distinguish yourself from the student masses. This has changed in the past years after the "Bologna reforms" have replaced the German diploma by the international bachelors/masters system and sin…

Let me delve into the speculation about culture a bit more: Back in the day of the emperors/kings, titles and medals were were an extremely cheap way of rewarding somebody without actually paying them. What this incentive system needed to work was a society that respected those titles, so you were and and even today are allowed to use those titles (examples: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nichtakademischer_Titel). This attitude was probably transferred to academic titles at some point.

In Austria, which has even more artifacts of its imperial time, this title-mania was followed so diligently that even the wife of the doctor was called Frau Doctor until a few decades ago. Also, every academic title at least equivalent to a master's degree is still used with your name in any formal dealings (they will call somebody up as Frau Magister Maier in a waiting room etc.). In Germany, they do this only with PhDs, so there is Herr Doktor but not Herr Diplom Psychologe.

Judging from the mini-bios of authors on books, though, the Germans seem as title-crazy as Austrians. The guy who cannot call himself "Diplom Psychologe Hans Maier" on the title page of the book will almost certainly start his bio with "Hans Maier is Diplom Psychologe ..." because this way, he is only describing academic achievement (OK) and not using it as a title (not OK). So people who worry about status love titles but can only actually use anything from a PhD upwards with their names. Go figure...

Re: German Fascination With Degrees Claims Latest Victim: Education Minister

#22
This whole discussion reminds me of Kurt Vonnegut's Player Piano. Sadly no such reference has been made yet. Maybe that's because not a lot of Germans have read it. Anyway, it sheds the whole discussion in a new light. The person in charge of education and research should not plagiarize, no doubt, but in general, if a person proves consistently that they can do their job, isn't the degree system that's supposed to determine who is able to do a particular job a little too rigid and deserves to be undermined? On the other hand there's the real hard work of those who don't cheat, and they'll demand justice. A difficult problem.

Re: German Fascination With Degrees Claims Latest Victim: Education Minister

#24
post #23

How is it that such dishonest people become leaders in our countries? I would expect those leading my country to at least have some integrity!

> I would expect those leading my country to at least have some integrity!

You want people with integrity to run for public office? Isn't that a contradiction in terms? I'm not speaking of the appearance of personal integrity, something that can be manufactured, I'm speaking of real integrity.

"It's not what you are, but what people think you are that is important." -- Joe Kennedy

Re: German Fascination With Degrees Claims Latest Victim: Education Minister

#25
post #17
post #9

“title arousal.” If the Germans had a fascination with degrees, they wouldn't have Mercedes engineers without a university degree http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16159943

Thats a different thing. The Apprenticeship programs in germany are very popular in the whole range of sectors. You basically train on the job in a company for 3 years earning a minimum wage and have to go to school for about 1/3rd of that time. At the end your company might offer you a full time job. However this kind of education is very practical, not too much theory, so the guys at mercedes for example are more l…

the real engineers

Ok, if the definition of a real engineer is someone with a degree, then there's no argument to have.

Re: German Fascination With Degrees Claims Latest Victim: Education Minister

#26
post #23

How is it that such dishonest people become leaders in our countries? I would expect those leading my country to at least have some integrity!

That is perhaps a little naive. People attracted by power (i.e., power over other people's lives) are by definition not saints. Expect most of them to be sociopaths, and your expectations would be closer to reality.

Re: German Fascination With Degrees Claims Latest Victim: Education Minister

#27

This whole discussion reminds me of Kurt Vonnegut's Player Piano. Sadly no such reference has been made yet. Maybe that's because not a lot of Germans have read it. Anyway, it sheds the whole discussion in a new light. The person in charge of education and research should not plagiarize, no doubt, but in general, if a person proves consistently that they can do their job, isn't the degree system that's supposed to de…

[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_Piano_%28novel%29 , not part of the half dozen KV books I've read either ]

I'd also guess it's not the ability to the the job that's in question, it's the will to do it ethically.

Would you trust the work of someone who's known to cut corners in order to declare the job done?

Re: German Fascination With Degrees Claims Latest Victim: Education Minister

#28
post #24
post #23

How is it that such dishonest people become leaders in our countries? I would expect those leading my country to at least have some integrity!

> I would expect those leading my country to at least have some integrity! You want people with integrity to run for public office? Isn't that a contradiction in terms? I'm not speaking of the appearance of personal integrity, something that can be manufactured, I'm speaking of real integrity. "It's not what you are, but what people think you are that is important." -- Joe Kennedy

Me too. And I would wish that those people had real integrity.

Re: German Fascination With Degrees Claims Latest Victim: Education Minister

#29
post #26
post #23

How is it that such dishonest people become leaders in our countries? I would expect those leading my country to at least have some integrity!

That is perhaps a little naive. People attracted by power (i.e., power over other people's lives) are by definition not saints. Expect most of them to be sociopaths, and your expectations would be closer to reality.

I guess it's the old saying of absolute power corrupts absolutely. It is very sad though!

Re: German Fascination With Degrees Claims Latest Victim: Education Minister

#30
post #16

1. Once Germany was a leading intellectual, scientific, and engineering powerhouse. Academic titles still have some cultural significance. It might be a kind of a relict. 2. It's worse in Austria.

they even adress you as Herr Magister, not only Dr. :D

Magister is Austria not Germany
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