Steve Heymann Should Be Fired • Hacker News Board

Re: Steve Heymann Should Be Fired

#101

Post by tptacek » Sat, Feb 09, 2013, 3:11 AM UTC

btilly wrote: post #96

tptacek wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the nightmare scenario they scared Swartz with was 6-7 years. Which clearly does qualify as a nightmare. Aaron's last lawyer did not believe that was a realistic threat. Either way: my understanding is that 35 years is an overt misstatement of how sentencing for repeated counts under CFAA works. I stand by the word "lie", both in its technical and moral senses.

I still disagree on the technical sense. 35 years is within the ability of the judge to assign. Of course the judge wouldn't, and if the judge did it would be reduced on appeal. But they claimed that that was the statutory maximum, and if you read the statute you can readily confirm that.

I believe but cannot (due to crappy airplane wireless and the fact that I'm using my phone to read) confirm that there are elements missing from Swartz's offense that would have prevented a maximal sentence.

Either way, I assume we agree that the DOJ published the press release knowing full well Swartz would not actually be subject to 35 years.

Re: Steve Heymann Should Be Fired

#102

Post by tptacek » Sat, Feb 09, 2013, 3:13 AM UTC

analog wrote: post #100

tptacek wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is neither what I claimed nor an accurate statement about what Swartz's attorney said.

"he might have faced as many as 2 years, but that he also might have avoided a custodial sentence even if he was convicted." This is in direct contradiction to what Aaron's lawyers have stated. Jail time was required, and if he did not plead guilty then the DOJ would push for a 7 year sentence.

Here you conflate the position of the prosecutors as related by Swartz's counsel with the actual opinion held by that counsel about the outcome of a conviction. The two are obviously not equivalent.

Re: Steve Heymann Should Be Fired

#103

Post by tptacek » Sat, Feb 09, 2013, 3:14 AM UTC

wglb wrote: post #98

tptacek wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The DOJ lied in the press release. They have a habit of doing that. There was no possibility that Swartz would face 35 years in prison. You can be upset about that, and that's reasonable, but you cannot synthesize from that upset the idea that Swartz actually could have spent 35 years in prison. The consensus among former prosecutors and defense attorneys writing about this case is that if Swartz had been convicted o…

While they lied in the sense that you are using here, there was clearly a game of intimidation going on: they upped the number of charges from four to 13 late in the game. And as a negotiating technique, the pressure was increased. I am reminded of a quote attributed to Emanuel Lasker ‘A threat is more powerful than its execution’.

I'm not sure what that point has to do with mine or 'tzs'. In any case, we agree.

Re: Steve Heymann Should Be Fired

#104

Post by barry-cotter » Sat, Feb 09, 2013, 3:26 AM UTC

ender7 wrote: post #42

chasing wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, I'll think about it and discuss as much as I'd like. Then I'll make a decision to sign or not sign the petition.

No offense, but you've managed to wrap up a perfectly decent thought with a wording that makes you look like an asshole.

No offense, but "no offense" usually means "I'm going to say something offensive and expect you to suck it up."

Re: Steve Heymann Should Be Fired

#105

Post by Daniel_Newby » Sat, Feb 09, 2013, 3:43 AM UTC

corporalagumbo wrote: post #90

ScottBurson wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We, the citizens, have set up a system that rewards this kind of behavior. It would be odd if Heymann didn't respond to the incentives we have placed before him. Taren's quote portrays him as ruthless. I concede that we don't know exactly what went through his mind, but based on the facts in evidence, I think that that appears to be an accurate characterization. I, at least, cannot imagine how anyone with any compass…

So basically, you have never met Heymann, have no idea what sort of person he is, how he behaves, how he thinks, what values drive him, etc. etc., but you are comfortable portraying him as a moral caricature and confident that there is little to no need for you to inquire further - because you're proooobably right anyway. Wonderful. I, at least, cannot imagine Try harder. Yeah, maybe they should have sent Aaron off f…

> Yeah, maybe they should have sent Aaron off for counselling.

Or maybe some lithium. First he decides that it would be nice to liberated all the world's documents and actually tries to do it. Second his totally irrational "plan" predictably fails, as in smoking crater fails. Third he collapses mentally and commits suicide.

That sure walks and quacks like manic depression.

I keep saying that the prosecutors are a red herring. This case is about Swartz's lunacy first and foremost, and secondly about the digital freedom opinion leaders who knew how the Feds like to make an example of people and egged Swartz on anyway.

Re: Steve Heymann Should Be Fired

#106

Post by barry-cotter » Sat, Feb 09, 2013, 3:45 AM UTC

ScottBurson wrote: post #69

jmodp wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should not be a matter of degree. Selective punishment is unjust whether it is done in a courtroom or a kindergarten class.

I don't know that this is selective punishment. It does seem to me that Heymann forgot that his job is supposed to be about justice. The system in which he works doesn't necessarily remind prosecutors of that as often or as impactfully as it should, and you're right, we need to fix that. There definitely are structural issues here that start with the knee-jerk "tough on crime" mentality of many voters. That's exactly…

I don't know that this is selective punishment. It does seem to me that Heymann forgot that his job is supposed to be about justice.

The law is about the law, not about justice. They may be related but they are not the same.

Re: Steve Heymann Should Be Fired

#107

Post by CamperBob2 » Sat, Feb 09, 2013, 4:11 AM UTC

jlgreco wrote: post #38

diminoten wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually think the Whitehouse petitions are harmful to causes, precisely because they give those who participate a false sense of accomplishment.

I agree. They facilitate evaporation cooling of causes and movements. Let the less dedicated participants feel that they have done their part, and numbers will dwindle. As numbers dwindle only the extreme remain, and in few enough numbers that the entire cause is then written off as fringe. It is a phenomena usually seen when cults start ejecting their more moderate members, but in this case it is harnessed by a sepa…

They facilitate evaporation cooling of causes and movements.

Also known as "letting a hundred flowers bloom." How'd that work out for the "flowers?"

Re: Steve Heymann Should Be Fired

#108

Post by corporalagumbo » Sat, Feb 09, 2013, 4:35 AM UTC

Daniel_Newby wrote: post #105

corporalagumbo wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So basically, you have never met Heymann, have no idea what sort of person he is, how he behaves, how he thinks, what values drive him, etc. etc., but you are comfortable portraying him as a moral caricature and confident that there is little to no need for you to inquire further - because you're proooobably right anyway. Wonderful. I, at least, cannot imagine Try harder. Yeah, maybe they should have sent Aaron off f…

> Yeah, maybe they should have sent Aaron off for counselling. Or maybe some lithium. First he decides that it would be nice to liberated all the world's documents and actually tries to do it . Second his totally irrational "plan" predictably fails, as in smoking crater fails. Third he collapses mentally and commits suicide. That sure walks and quacks like manic depression. I keep saying that the prosecutors are a re…

I don't know if I would call Swartz a lunatic. I would definitely agree that he sounds highly unstable and that his actions smack of desperation and recklessness. He doesn't sound like a hero to me. He sounds like a very unhappy person who failed to find a good path in life. Just look at photos of him. He looks soft, weak, faltering, unfinished.

And I've said many times that there are red herrings all over the show with this affair. Those who focus on Aaron's explicit ideology are falling for a major one, I believe. Similarly with the focus on the DOJ. The only relevant issue here is Aaron's psyche, and the trend of reckless, idealistic data-vigilantes trying to place themselves above the law.

Re: Steve Heymann Should Be Fired

#109

Post by corporalagumbo » Sat, Feb 09, 2013, 4:37 AM UTC

n3rdy wrote: post #88

saraid216 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hooray for a cultural environment that supports and condones the dehumanization and demonization of entities designated as enemies.

Are you talking about the prosecutors or their victims?

I assume the former.

Re: Steve Heymann Should Be Fired

#110

Post by monochromatic » Sat, Feb 09, 2013, 4:38 AM UTC

gyardley wrote: post #18

The comments on this post are depressing. Whatever your attitude about the White House's goofy petition site, the efficacy of 'online activism', or what-have-you, Aaron Swartz's grieving partner thinks signing this petition will help shed a little light into the circumstances that led to his death. Maybe she's right, maybe she's wrong, but either way, it only takes a second to do - so just go sign the damn thing.

Maybe she's right, maybe she's wrong but either way go sign this petition to have someone fired.

Ummmm no.