Live data from Hacker News

The Elsevier boycott one year on

gowers.wordpress.com

11–20 of 63 posts

Re: The Elsevier boycott one year on

#11
I'd say the boycott has reached the point of crossing the chasm into adoption by mainstream users. There are still new people signing up all the time, but the pace is low.

A bottleneck to mainstream use is the lack of overlap between hackers/devs and people who are most influential in academic publishing, such as senior editors. To developers the question is: if editors want to post their articles on the web, why don't they just do that? To editors, the question is: how can I practically make my journal open access? There is a need for technology to assist in setting up open access journals.

Some people are working on solutions, but it's not obvious what that solution will ultimately look like. There is some trial and error happening, and I hope great progress is made while the problem has the attention of the community.

Re: The Elsevier boycott one year on

#12

I'd say the boycott has reached the point of crossing the chasm into adoption by mainstream users. There are still new people signing up all the time, but the pace is low. A bottleneck to mainstream use is the lack of overlap between hackers/devs and people who are most influential in academic publishing, such as senior editors. To developers the question is: if editors want to post their articles on the web, why don…

"There is a need for technology to assist in setting up open access journals."

I just hope they don't start hosting them on Facebook.

Re: The Elsevier boycott one year on

#13
post #8

This "free as in speech" == "free as in beer" shtick has become weird. When you're more fundamentalist than RMS it's time to step back and introspect.

Have you read Eben Moglen's writings per chance? Your thoughts?

If you haven't looked into his work, here's something (in line with topic) to get started on: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbcy_ZxXLl8 -- I'd be curious to hear your thoughts. It's 1 hour 11 minutes, but I promise every second is worth watching. Moglen is an excellent communicator.

Near 8 minutes in, he says this:

This is the introduction to the free software movement. This is the purpose of the free software movement. This is the aim not only of the free software movement, but of a large number of the other things we are doing that arise from the fact that the digital revolution means that knowledge no longer has a non-zero marginal cost, that when you have the first copy of any significant representation of knowledge – whatever the fixed cost of the production of that representation may have been – you have as many additional copies, everywhere, as you need, without any significant additional costs.

The non-zero marginal cost quality of all the things we digitize, which – in the society we are now building – is everything we value, because we digitize everything we can value, right down to how we fit in our jeans, right? In the world where we digitize everything of value and everything of value has been digitized, a moral question of significance arises: When you can provide to everybody everything that you value, at the cost of providing it to any one body, what is the morality of excluding people who cannot afford to pay?

If you could make as much bread, or have as many fishes, as you needed to feed everyone, at the cost of the first loaf and the first fish plus a button press, what would be the morality for charging more for loaves and fishes than the poorest person could afford to pay? It’s a difficult moral problem, explaining why you are excluding people from that which you yourself value highly and could provide to them for nothing.

The best way of solving this moral problem is not to acknowledge its existence, which is the current theory. The current theory in force takes the view that industrial society lived in a world of non-zero marginal cost for information – information and the ability to learn had to be embedded in analog things: books, recordings, objects that cost non-zero amounts of money to make, move, and sell. Therefore, it was inevitable that representations of things we value would have significant marginal costs. And in economies operating efficiently and competitively, – or for that matter, efficiently and non-competitively – there would still be some cost that somebody has to pay at the other end to receive each copy of something of meaning or value, unless there is somebody available to provide a subsidy. And since that was the 20th century reality, it was appropriate to have moral theory which regarded exclusion as an inevitable necessity.

The discussion, of course, was about scale. “Ought we to find ways to subsidize more knowledge for more people?”, and the United States became not merely the wealthiest and most powerful country, after the second world war, not merely the indispensable or inevitable country, it became the intellectually most attractive country because it heavily subsidized the availability of sophisticated knowledge to people who could make use of it, even people who came elsewhere from poorer societies, or who had not the money to pay. And after the second world war, in the G.I. Bill, the United States took a unique approach to the age-old problem of how to reduce social disorder after war time through the demobilization of a large number of young men trained to the efficient use of collective violence – a thing which is always worrisome to societies, and which typically produces repression movements post-war, as the society as a whole tries to get back its leverage over those young men – the G.I. Bill was a radical, and indeed productive approach to the problem, namely send everybody to as much education as they want to have, at the expense of the state which is grateful to them for risking their lives in its defense. A splendid system; on the basis of that, and the provision of tertiary and quaternary education to the talented elite of the world, the United Stated government built a special place for its society in the world, as throwing away fewer brains than its power and importance would otherwise have tended to indicate it would do.

But we are no longer talking about whether we can save people, identified as the elite of other societies, from the ignorance to which they might otherwise fall prey, through enlightened federal spending. We are talking about eliminating ignorance. We’re talking about addressing the great deprivation of knowledge of everything of use and utility and beauty from everybody, by building out the network across humanity, and allowing everybody to have the knowledge and the culture that they wish to obtain. And we’re talking about doing that because the alternative to doing that is the persistence of an immoral condition.

Please watch to see how he continues :)

Re: The Elsevier boycott one year on

#14
post #13
post #8

This "free as in speech" == "free as in beer" shtick has become weird. When you're more fundamentalist than RMS it's time to step back and introspect.

Have you read Eben Moglen's writings per chance? Your thoughts? If you haven't looked into his work, here's something (in line with topic) to get started on: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbcy_ZxXLl8 -- I'd be curious to hear your thoughts. It's 1 hour 11 minutes, but I promise every second is worth watching. Moglen is an excellent communicator. Near 8 minutes in, he says this: This is the introduction to the free s…

He loses me at "zero marginal cost." What is the here or there of the "marginal" part? "Zero marginal cost" is not the same as "zero cost." Since when do people have a right to receive things for their marginal cost? What difference does it make whether that marginal cost is zero or very small?

I love free software. But one of the things I love about the free software community is that it is self-sufficient. It respects that some people don't want to "share" so it shares amongst itself. RMS didn't copy the source code of some commercial compiler and "free it." He wrote his own. Miguel de Icaza didn't copy the source of CDE and put it on Pirate Bay and "free it." He started GNOME and wrote his own desktop.

I see the "free information" people as the antithesis of that. They don't just want to share what they create. They want to share what you create. And I see that as an impingement on freedom.

Re: The Elsevier boycott one year on

#15
post #14
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you read Eben Moglen's writings per chance? Your thoughts? If you haven't looked into his work, here's something (in line with topic) to get started on: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbcy_ZxXLl8 -- I'd be curious to hear your thoughts. It's 1 hour 11 minutes, but I promise every second is worth watching. Moglen is an excellent communicator. Near 8 minutes in, he says this: This is the introduction to the free s…

He loses me at "zero marginal cost." What is the here or there of the "marginal" part? "Zero marginal cost" is not the same as "zero cost." Since when do people have a right to receive things for their marginal cost? What difference does it make whether that marginal cost is zero or very small? I love free software. But one of the things I love about the free software community is that it is self-sufficient. It respe…

> I see the "free information" people as the antithesis of that. They don't just want to share what they create. They want to share what you create. And I see that as an impingement on freedom.

I think the way the "free information" people see things is that a free and easy, attractive accessibility of knowledge (or more generally, information) is needed for anyone to truly prosper in their life, and for humanity to progress further as a whole. A physical good (like food) is not reproducible at an effective zero marginal cost -- digital data is. So, when you in fact can provide everyone this resource, and work to achieve a world with true equal opportunity at least in this one aspect (of knowledge) at a practically zero or near-zero cost, you are indeed morally obliged to distribute this good to everyone who will prosper from it. As it stands, culture is no longer free -- to be able to participate you must pay. The more you are able to pay, the more cultured you can be. Books, movies, music -- you can have only as much culture, knowledge as you can pay. Why... when it's finally gotten so much easier to afford everyone culture and information for free, or near-free costs.

Re: The Elsevier boycott one year on

#16
post #10
post #2

I would like to see a similar effort directed towards the IEEE and Acm publishing associations. They both leech off of publicly funded research and impede scientific and technological progress with their myriad paywalls.

They are professional organizations, not just publishers. As professional organizations, their primary goal is to support their members and the betterment of the field. They may not always have paywalls; unlike Elsivier, their organization exists for purposes other than getting money from publications. The co-chairs of the ACM Publishing Board recently wrote an editorial, "Positioning ACM for an Open Access Future":…

If their primary goal is to support members and the betterment of their field, then why are they impeding the sharing of information amongst said members and the public at large, not only with recent research but legacy papers from the 80s? My guess is that the organizations have evolved into self-serving fat bureaucratic fiefdoms.

Re: The Elsevier boycott one year on

#17
post #15
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He loses me at "zero marginal cost." What is the here or there of the "marginal" part? "Zero marginal cost" is not the same as "zero cost." Since when do people have a right to receive things for their marginal cost? What difference does it make whether that marginal cost is zero or very small? I love free software. But one of the things I love about the free software community is that it is self-sufficient. It respe…

> I see the "free information" people as the antithesis of that. They don't just want to share what they create. They want to share what you create. And I see that as an impingement on freedom. I think the way the "free information" people see things is that a free and easy, attractive accessibility of knowledge (or more generally, information) is needed for anyone to truly prosper in their life, and for humanity to…

Okay, so digital data is reproducible at near-zero marginal cost, and so there is a moral obligation to distribute it for zero cost to anyone who will benefit from it. Let's generalize this principle. There are physical goods that are reproducible for very low marginal costs. Clothes, food, etc, medicine, etc, are all very cheap to produce in large quantities. Is there a moral obligation to provide those goods--not for free but for their low marginal cost, to anyone who will prosper from it? If the answer is no, how do you justify the distinction? The producer is in no different a position if he is obligated to provide something with $0 marginal cost for $0 than if he is obligated to provide something with $3 marginal cost for $3. There is no mathematical discontinuity as the marginal cost approaches $0, as long as the producer is compensated for whatever the marginal cost happens to be.

Re: The Elsevier boycott one year on

#18
post #17
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I see the "free information" people as the antithesis of that. They don't just want to share what they create. They want to share what you create. And I see that as an impingement on freedom. I think the way the "free information" people see things is that a free and easy, attractive accessibility of knowledge (or more generally, information) is needed for anyone to truly prosper in their life, and for humanity to…

Okay, so digital data is reproducible at near-zero marginal cost, and so there is a moral obligation to distribute it for zero cost to anyone who will benefit from it. Let's generalize this principle. There are physical goods that are reproducible for very low marginal costs. Clothes, food, etc, medicine, etc, are all very cheap to produce in large quantities. Is there a moral obligation to provide those goods--not f…

If the up-front cost of producing the first instance of the product is paid by society, as is often the case with the type of work published in Elsevier journals, than it does seem fair to distribute the product back to members of the funding society at the marginal cost (which is not quite zero, as hosting, editing, and curating do have costs).

The analogy can be made between scientific funding body and investor, where an investor expects a return on their investment. In this version of reality, the funding body would encourage distribution of the product at supra-marginal cost, with some percentage of that cost funneled back to the funder. This situation is rare in science, i.e. a journal company paying the NSF royalties on subscriptions whose content was paid for by the NSF.

Re: The Elsevier boycott one year on

#19
post #17
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I see the "free information" people as the antithesis of that. They don't just want to share what they create. They want to share what you create. And I see that as an impingement on freedom. I think the way the "free information" people see things is that a free and easy, attractive accessibility of knowledge (or more generally, information) is needed for anyone to truly prosper in their life, and for humanity to…

Okay, so digital data is reproducible at near-zero marginal cost, and so there is a moral obligation to distribute it for zero cost to anyone who will benefit from it. Let's generalize this principle. There are physical goods that are reproducible for very low marginal costs. Clothes, food, etc, medicine, etc, are all very cheap to produce in large quantities. Is there a moral obligation to provide those goods--not f…

> There are physical goods that are reproducible for very low marginal costs. Clothes, food, etc, medicine, etc, are all very cheap to produce in large quantities. Is there a moral obligation to provide those goods--not for free but for their low marginal cost, to anyone who will prosper from it?

A physical good (food, clothes) is depletable, and in that way too unlike digital data, which is for all practical purposes undepletable. But if you consider even highly inexpensive physical goods, they have various substantial costs of transportation, inventory, etc. associated to them, and thus they are not truly as fluidly and effortlessly reproducible in the way that digital data is reproducible for zero cost.

You have a network in which it is so convenient to share that it's almost begging you to. There's a lot of fundamental rethinking of commerce here, and I was quite bugged by it all when I started looking into it myself. But when you see how badly the bigger half of people in this world are suffering it's easier to see why this is necessary.

You're going to get a much better explanation of things from Moglen himself than me -- here, the transcript to the video I linked (if you're unable to watch the video): http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Free_and_Open_Software:_Paradi...

Re: The Elsevier boycott one year on

#20
post #19
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, so digital data is reproducible at near-zero marginal cost, and so there is a moral obligation to distribute it for zero cost to anyone who will benefit from it. Let's generalize this principle. There are physical goods that are reproducible for very low marginal costs. Clothes, food, etc, medicine, etc, are all very cheap to produce in large quantities. Is there a moral obligation to provide those goods--not f…

> There are physical goods that are reproducible for very low marginal costs. Clothes, food, etc, medicine, etc, are all very cheap to produce in large quantities. Is there a moral obligation to provide those goods--not for free but for their low marginal cost, to anyone who will prosper from it? A physical good (food, clothes) is depletable, and in that way too unlike digital data, which is for all practical purpose…

> A physical good (food, clothes) is depletable, and in that way too unlike digital data, which is for all practical purposes undepletable. But if you consider even highly inexpensive physical goods, they have various substantial costs of transportation, inventory, etc. associated to them, and thus they are not truly as fluidly and effortlessly reproducible in the way that digital data is reproducible for zero cost.

Right, that's why I said "not for free but for their low marginal cost." You're hand-waving with the "zero marginal cost" argument without addressing my counter-point. If the fact that something has a marginal cost approaching $0 means you are morally obligated to provide it for a price approaching $0, why is there not a similar moral obligation to provide something that has a marginal cost of $3 for $3?

Post reply on HN