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Stalled Out on Tesla’s Electric Highway

nytimes.com

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Re: Stalled Out on Tesla’s Electric Highway

#21

Post by CamperBob2 »

In a rational world, every one of the gas stations he passed would have had a rack of fully charged swappable batteries, ready for installation in less time than it would have taken to fill a conventional gas tank.

Why nobody seems to understand how stupid charging an EV in real time is, is something that I find astonishing.

(To clarify: I can understand why most people don't understand why non-swappable batteries are stupid, but I can't understand why someone like Elon Musk doesn't understand that. I'll admit that it makes me wonder if I'm missing something.)

Re: Stalled Out on Tesla’s Electric Highway

#22

Post by saulrh »

pbreit wrote: post #12
saulrh wrote: post #7

This blog post states the obvious: early adopters better know what they're in for and what they're doing. The author isn't an experienced early adopter and doesn't know what they're doing, and rightly concludes that the technology isn't ready for universal mainstream use. Unfortunately, the article entirely fails to address the point and is aimed squarely at an audience that won't get it either. It will be used as am…

The article seemed totally fair to me. I'm not sure how you can conclude that the author is not an experienced early adopter and am also not sure how relevant that is when discussing a new automobile on the market. What was mis-represented? How is the article irresponsible? nb: I am a huge Tesla fan.

The Tesla isn't just a "new car" - it's new technology. It doesn't have the years of accumulated wisdom and infrastructure that support normal new cars. The same way that you understand that cold weather means you have to let your car warm up before you can drive off, it will be common knowledge that electric vehicles lose a quarter or a half of their range in cold weather. This article will be completely obsolete in a year, but because the author failed to convey that point it will sit around people's minds for years.

Re: Stalled Out on Tesla’s Electric Highway

#23

Post by CamperBob2 »

peteforde wrote: post #14

As a fan of Tesla's efforts, it pains me to read this; no matter where the blame lies (physics, bad planning, poorly tested diagnostics software) this article will haunt the company for years. Every oil lobbyist will eat this up, and it should become the foundation of any EV-haters argument. And that sucks. However, I'm annoyed that Tesla's UX people let a car with this much design intelligence leave without connecti…

Also, the idea that recharging stations spaced 200 miles apart are in any way adequate for a 265-mile trip is just... weird.

Would you trust your laptop or cell phone's battery life estimate to that extent?

Re: Stalled Out on Tesla’s Electric Highway

#24

Post by bpc9 »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #21

In a rational world, every one of the gas stations he passed would have had a rack of fully charged swappable batteries, ready for installation in less time than it would have taken to fill a conventional gas tank. Why nobody seems to understand how stupid charging an EV in real time is, is something that I find astonishing. (To clarify: I can understand why most people don't understand why non-swappable batteries ar…

The article mentioned that the top-end battery weighs in at half a ton --- not exactly hot-swapping material. Also, when it comes to safety, center of gravity, chassis rigidity, etc --- I'm sure there were a myriad of engineering decisions beyond weight that go against hot swapping. And that's not even getting to added cost and logistics of maintaining a network of skilled battery swap experts, "ownership" over the batteries (e.g. who is responsible for replacing failing units if they are shared around the community of Tesla owners).

I'm probably just scratching the surface with a minute of thought. I'm sure that the folks at Telsa have been over this ground, and much more.

Re: Stalled Out on Tesla’s Electric Highway

#25

Post by CamperBob2 »

saulrh wrote: post #22
pbreit wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article seemed totally fair to me. I'm not sure how you can conclude that the author is not an experienced early adopter and am also not sure how relevant that is when discussing a new automobile on the market. What was mis-represented? How is the article irresponsible? nb: I am a huge Tesla fan.

The Tesla isn't just a "new car" - it's new technology. It doesn't have the years of accumulated wisdom and infrastructure that support normal new cars. The same way that you understand that cold weather means you have to let your car warm up before you can drive off, it will be common knowledge that electric vehicles lose a quarter or a half of their range in cold weather. This article will be completely obsolete in…

This article will be completely obsolete in a year, but because the owner's manual failed to convey that point it will sit around people's minds for years.

Fixed above. Also, my impression from the article is that Tesla is telling people to derate the mileage estimate by more like 10%, not 25% or 50%.

Re: Stalled Out on Tesla’s Electric Highway

#26

Post by chc »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #21

In a rational world, every one of the gas stations he passed would have had a rack of fully charged swappable batteries, ready for installation in less time than it would have taken to fill a conventional gas tank. Why nobody seems to understand how stupid charging an EV in real time is, is something that I find astonishing. (To clarify: I can understand why most people don't understand why non-swappable batteries ar…

The battery for the Model S is the entire base of the car. It's over seven feet long, weighs more than half a ton and costs about $12,000 to make. I'm sure they would have loved if it could have been swappable, but getting there from the current technology would mean a lot of compromise that would almost certainly not be worth it.

Re: Stalled Out on Tesla’s Electric Highway

#27

Post by eropple »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #21

In a rational world, every one of the gas stations he passed would have had a rack of fully charged swappable batteries, ready for installation in less time than it would have taken to fill a conventional gas tank. Why nobody seems to understand how stupid charging an EV in real time is, is something that I find astonishing. (To clarify: I can understand why most people don't understand why non-swappable batteries ar…

I think you are missing something: where do you put the replaceable batteries?

Tesla's battery packs are distributed throughout the car, both to allow for cargo space (not having a trunk would be something of a minus) and to distribute the weight of all those batteries. I am having a very hard time envisioning a way to achieve both of those goals while making the batteries replaceable.

Re: Stalled Out on Tesla’s Electric Highway

#28

Post by CamperBob2 »

bpc9 wrote: post #24
CamperBob2 wrote: post #21

In a rational world, every one of the gas stations he passed would have had a rack of fully charged swappable batteries, ready for installation in less time than it would have taken to fill a conventional gas tank. Why nobody seems to understand how stupid charging an EV in real time is, is something that I find astonishing. (To clarify: I can understand why most people don't understand why non-swappable batteries ar…

The article mentioned that the top-end battery weighs in at half a ton --- not exactly hot-swapping material. Also, when it comes to safety, center of gravity, chassis rigidity, etc --- I'm sure there were a myriad of engineering decisions beyond weight that go against hot swapping. And that's not even getting to added cost and logistics of maintaining a network of skilled battery swap experts, "ownership" over the b…

You're right, those are all drawbacks. They all pale in comparison to the advantages, though.

Swapping my car's battery should be as big a deal as swapping the propane cylinder on my gas grill.

And yes, batteries these days are perfectly capable of monitoring themselves in a leased-usage scenario. Your laptop battery has its own CPU and EEPROM, for instance. To understand why, see any recent news story on the Dreamliner.

Re: Stalled Out on Tesla’s Electric Highway

#29

Post by eropple »

michael_miller wrote: post #17
stcredzero wrote: post #4

My friends think I'm dowdy. Until recent years, I was very conservative about estimates. Every "event" in a trip adds 5 minutes, no matter how "nothing" it seems. I was often too early, but never late. A Tesla S with the 260 mile battery, I would treat like a car with 130 miles range. Plenty for an around town commuter and errand vehicle. A Leaf, I would treat like a 50 mile range car. Also, why don't those things co…

Knowing nothing about heaters, I'm curious: why does electric heat make no sense? My intuition would be that an electric heater would require far fewer components (especially considering the battery is already in place), be less dangerous, and require less maintenance. What is the relative efficiency of electric heaters to propane heaters?

I don't think they "make no sense", and I'm not sure a propane heater is the answer, but an electric heater is going to require the use of battery power otherwise used for getting you from point A to point B.

Re: Stalled Out on Tesla’s Electric Highway

#30

Post by CamperBob2 »

eropple wrote: post #27
CamperBob2 wrote: post #21

In a rational world, every one of the gas stations he passed would have had a rack of fully charged swappable batteries, ready for installation in less time than it would have taken to fill a conventional gas tank. Why nobody seems to understand how stupid charging an EV in real time is, is something that I find astonishing. (To clarify: I can understand why most people don't understand why non-swappable batteries ar…

I think you are missing something: where do you put the replaceable batteries? Tesla's battery packs are distributed throughout the car, both to allow for cargo space (not having a trunk would be something of a minus) and to distribute the weight of all those batteries. I am having a very hard time envisioning a way to achieve both of those goals while making the batteries replaceable.

(Shrug) Engineering ultimately has to serve real-world requirements, above and beyond all else.
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