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Steve Heymann Should Be Fired

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Re: Steve Heymann Should Be Fired

#71

Post by larrys »

jlgreco wrote: post #57
larrys wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"evaporation cooling" Exactly if you give people a "complaint department" and a method to file a complaint you put distance between their anger and the thing they are angry about and they will many times cool down and not explore other more viable options (not sure if that is what you meant but it's one of my thoughts about a process like this).

That is actually a better way of explaining it I think. Give the majority a safe way to vent and you'll deflate growing sentiment. My (probably unnecessary) expansion on this is that when you deflate the sentiment, all those who remain angry will become more extreme (just by nature of not being surrounded by less extreme people) and will become easily to marginalize/fire.

I first noticed a similar behavior many years ago when the electric company pulled the power and we had some issues as a result. We were furious.

Their first response was to toally agree with us and give us the distinct impression that they were going to "make good". As a result we didn't do anything we just waited because we didn't think there would be any problem in restitution. Well time passed and later I had lost my steam when they finally came around and said "sorry but we're not going to do anything".

Re: Steve Heymann Should Be Fired

#73

Post by rayiner »

ScottBurson wrote: post #56
arbuge wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm willing to bet he would care if he got fired.

Perhaps. He might make more money in private practice. But let's suppose you're right. I don't actually think firing would be an disproportioniate rebuke under the circumstances. To use language that Heymann might have used of Swartz, I think it would be great to make an example of him. All that said, I don't expect it to happen.

> He might make more money in private practice.

He would, without a doubt, make much more money in private practice. That's one thing I think HN folks overlook. Senior DOJ people could lateral out to high six figure into seven figure salaries as partners in law firms. The folks that stay at DOJ as lifers are generally "true believers." That doesn't mean they don't have their internal motivations, but rather those motivations are shaped by an extremely deep belief in the rule of law. They view people who don't follow rules as at best anti-social, and more likely dangerous. Figuring out why they don't understand hackers doesn't require resorting to any elaborate theories about trying to make career-defining prosecutions. They're simply people who have a very different world view than the one hacker culture embraces.

Re: Steve Heymann Should Be Fired

#74

Post by pc86 »

jmodp wrote: post #41

The death of Aaron Swartz is a loss to his family, his friends, and to society. The focus on the prosecutors, however, makes me uneasy. I can support a review of the conduct of the prosecutors but I can't call for their firing. From what I have read, the conduct of the prosecutors was close to standard procedure. If it was wrong of the prosecutors to make an example out of Aaron, it is equally wrong to make an exampl…

> Why should these cases linger for so long?

While I don't know that this was case with Aaron's case (I assume it was), most federal cases are incredibly complex and take a competent attorneys weeks just to get up to speed. Justice is not about arriving at a decision quickly, but arriving at the correct decision.

> Why can't we create have a hacker legal defense fund that would keep cases like this from bankrupting defendants?

Nobody says you can't, but I know I wouldn't put money into it. You don't get to do something like that and cherry pick who gets to use it. Criminals will use it to pay for a better attorney.

> Why should expert legal advice be only available to those who can afford it?

Because expert legal minds are not content to earn $50,000 a year, and with what it costs to attend the best law schools (and even mediocre undergraduate institutions) it's ridiculous to expect them to.

> What should we tell a friend who is planning to commit a crime on behalf of a cause?

That if they're not willing to pay the full price they probably shouldn't do it.

> Was Aaron's cause worth anyone's life? This should be a question for everyone, not just prosecutors.

This is where I start to get twitchy with the general consensus on HN. Aaron was not murdered. His death was not an accident. He chose to take his own life, so clearly to him this cause was worth that, or at the very least it was preferable to him going to prison.

> Is any middle ground possible in the conflict between rights holders and advocates of free information?

Not so long as rights holders are hell bent on perpetuating a business model from the 1920s, and not so long as free information activists are hell bent on not respecting the personal (intellectual) property rights of others, including corporations.

Re: Steve Heymann Should Be Fired

#75

Post by jamesaguilar »

ender7 wrote: post #64
jamesaguilar wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, he's responding someone who is telling us to not talk about the issue and simply perform the action he favors, in so many words.

As I tried to make clear in my comment, I was taking issue with his/her method of delivery, not what he/she was objecting to. His/her point is a perfectly valid one, but that's orthogonal to whether he/she chooses to be nasty.

And what I'm trying to make clear is that offensive comments ("don't talk about it, just do it") sometimes engender offensive responses.

... as you helpfully demonstrated by calling chasing an asshole while chastising him for being offensive.

Re: Steve Heymann Should Be Fired

#76

Post by user911302966 »

Can't or won't do to the time? Don't do the crime. Committing a crime in a civil society is not bravery if the perp offs himself before standing trial.

Whether or not one sympathizes with the man's motivation for committing those crimes should not influence their respect nor breed contempt for the law.

Re: Steve Heymann Should Be Fired

#78

Post by analog »

tzs wrote: post #49
analog wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the conduct of the prosecutors was close to standard procedure" This is part of the problem. It is standard procedure and it needs to be changed. Firing those who've acted too aggresively will help to change the way prosecutors operate. "If it was wrong of the prosecutors to make an example out of Aaron, it is equally wrong to make an example of the prosecutors" No it is not equally wrong because we're not suggestin…

> Losing your job versus facing decades in prison are orders of magnitude apart Swartz was not facing decades in prison. He faced charges whose maximum sentences added together reached several decades, but it was all but impossible to actually receive that kind of sentence. First, the Federal sentencing guidelines scale the sentence based on the severity of the particular instance of the crime. Swartz's was low on th…

Your beliefs on the length of Swartz's possible jail term are contradicted by the US Department of Justice themselves.

"AARON SWARTZ, 24, was charged in an indictment with wire fraud, computer fraud, unlawfully obtaining information from a protected computer, and recklessly damaging a protected computer. If convicted on these charges, SWARTZ faces up to 35 years in prison, to be followed by three years of supervised release, restitution, forfeiture and a fine of up to $1 million." [1]

[1] http://www.justice.gov/usao/ma/news/2011/July/SwartzAaronPR....

Re: Steve Heymann Should Be Fired

#79

Post by saraid216 »

ScottBurson wrote: post #63
corporalagumbo wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, so the reason why we know this assertion is true is because everyone knows that such assertions are always true?

We, the citizens, have set up a system that rewards this kind of behavior. It would be odd if Heymann didn't respond to the incentives we have placed before him. Taren's quote portrays him as ruthless. I concede that we don't know exactly what went through his mind, but based on the facts in evidence, I think that that appears to be an accurate characterization. I, at least, cannot imagine how anyone with any compass…

Hooray for a cultural environment that supports and condones the dehumanization and demonization of entities designated as enemies.

Re: Steve Heymann Should Be Fired

#80

Post by wisty »

I've been spamming this opinion on just about every AS thread: Plea bargaining should go.

It's a SCOTUS issue, but I can't see how it's even constitutional to punish a person for demanding their constitutional right to a trial. And yes - it's a punishment, as the expected outcome of a jury trial tends to be much harsher than a plea bargain. I really doubt under 10% of defendants would demand a trial if there weren't effectively a penalty for doing so. (Aaron never would have gotten 10 years, but even 12 months would still be much harsher than the 6 months they offered).

The only reason to plead guilty should be to save time, costs, and establish contrition (sorry judge, I did it, and I feel bad ... can you give me a slightly lower penalty?)

I understand that public prosecutors and judges are underpaid and overworked, but if they can't do their jobs there's no shortage of law grads out there. It would cost a little more, but if you're locking someone up for 6 months and can't afford give them a day in court (Aaron's case may have been a bit more than a day, but I doubt the average court case would take much time at all) then you shouldn't be prosecuting them at all.

I guess there's not as much scope for corruption though. Privatised prisons are a massive money maker. Public prosecutors and judges probably don't bribe (sorry ... support) their representatives nearly as much as prisons.

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