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Steve Heymann Should Be Fired

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21–30 of 118 posts

Re: Steve Heymann Should Be Fired

#21
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Demonstrating a precedent for prudent scepticism about collective action on the Internet.

Is the medium particularly important? Would you feel better if it were all organized with newletters over the postal system? Or are you just afraid of collective action in general?

>Is the medium particularly important?

Yes and no. No, the medium is not important, because groupthink can manifest and has manifested many times at every stage of civilization. Groupthink is of course not unique to the internet.

But yes, the medium is important, because the medium in this case is the internet, the defining medium of our age, and which most importantly is an emerging medium, which I would argue we still don't really understand. I think that we haven't yet worked out, as they say with the development of cinema, the grammar of the internet. This is after all still very early days for a global connected world culture, and there is always the potential for negative developments in such a period, before mistakes have been made, recognised, and effective counter-measures have been developed and deployed. In my view, this period is always dangerous.

>are you just afraid of collective action in general?

Not afraid perhaps but definitely wary. Collective action can be good, but it generally takes a lot of time and hard work and thought by a small group of people preparing and working on the rationale for the action, targeting an issue which is as close to bulletproof as possible. The Civil Rights movement, for instance, is an excellent example of this, but it didn't happen overnight. "Good things take time." And I should mention that from my impression the people involved in civil rights behaved with calmness and dignity, and never would have turned shrill at a small setback or upset. Contrast this with modern insta-rage activism, which in my opinion rests almost always on very shaky intellectual foundations. The screefield of issues thrown up in the wake of Aaron's death are anything, I would say, but bulletproof.

There is a strong precedent in history for collective action degenerating into groupthink and turning very nasty, and thus I think it is perfectly reasonable to be suspicious of collective action today.

Re: your previous post -

> If you fuck up in the public sector, you get sacked.

See that's part of the problem. Yes, of course, employees public sector should be accountable. I have no argument with that. But the implication here is that these employees of the DOJ did fuck up. But did they really? Many, many people judged them more-or-less on the spot as guilty - and based on what? A blog they read? Their political prejudices? Their sympathies to a story about a nice young kid with lofty ideals? Is this issue really so simple, so cut and dried, that it boils down to some bad cops ganging up on a nice kid? I don't believe so. And furthermore, I think that it never bodes well when lots of people are making up their minds very quickly that someone is an enemy who needs to be punished.

That's where normal, democratic mechanisms of accountability are supposed to come into play: to sift slowly through all the ins and outs of issues and avoid quick, heated judgements. Yes, there should be mechanisms for accountability in society. But those mechanisms must be objective, critical - and slow. What modern internet activism threatens is a short-circuiting of whatever mechanisms we have with the worst mechanism of all: mob rule. Regardless of the quality of current mechanisms, that would be a loss. Why? Because mobs move too quickly to reflect on their motives. Because mobs lack the social delineation which allow dissenting voices to challenge the developing orthodoxy. Because mobs lack an organisational structure which would allow the issue to be effectively and calmly analysed. Because mobs demand quick justice. Because mobs intimidate others to get what they want. Because mobs demand assent.

Now, I'm not saying that the current situation is all this. It's much milder than the worst case scenario - but it has the potential to develop that way. Or at least that's what I think. I also think that at any point in time, the people crying the loudest about oppression and freedom are most likely the real oppressors. But that's just a pet theory.

Re: Steve Heymann Should Be Fired

#22

I'm so sick of these useless White House petitions. Yes, they can bring a small amount of attention to issues but otherwise they accomplish nothing other than making people feel good for "signing" a petition. Has there been a single White House petition that resulted in anything other than an official comment?

I actually think the Whitehouse petitions are harmful to causes, precisely because they give those who participate a false sense of accomplishment.

Re: Steve Heymann Should Be Fired

#23

The comments on this post are depressing. Whatever your attitude about the White House's goofy petition site, the efficacy of 'online activism', or what-have-you, Aaron Swartz's grieving partner thinks signing this petition will help shed a little light into the circumstances that led to his death. Maybe she's right, maybe she's wrong, but either way, it only takes a second to do - so just go sign the damn thing.

I signed it, not because I expect Heymann to get fired or even care whether he gets fired, but because there needs to be some public pressure to counterbalance the existing pressures on prosecutors to send as many people as possible to prison for as long as possible.

Re: Steve Heymann Should Be Fired

#24

The comments on this post are depressing. Whatever your attitude about the White House's goofy petition site, the efficacy of 'online activism', or what-have-you, Aaron Swartz's grieving partner thinks signing this petition will help shed a little light into the circumstances that led to his death. Maybe she's right, maybe she's wrong, but either way, it only takes a second to do - so just go sign the damn thing.

Actually, I'll think about it and discuss as much as I'd like. Then I'll make a decision to sign or not sign the petition.

Re: Steve Heymann Should Be Fired

#26
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the medium particularly important? Would you feel better if it were all organized with newletters over the postal system? Or are you just afraid of collective action in general?

>Is the medium particularly important? Yes and no. No, the medium is not important, because groupthink can manifest and has manifested many times at every stage of civilization. Groupthink is of course not unique to the internet. But yes, the medium is important, because the medium in this case is the internet, the defining medium of our age, and which most importantly is an emerging medium, which I would argue we st…

Whether the "mob" is right or wrong is of relatively little real consequence; lives are not at stake, a career is (and even that is wishful thinking). You attempt to artificially raise the stakes in order to shut down action and dialog through unsanctioned channels by comparing this to lynching, but your intent is too transparent.

Your 'pet theory' about those who complain about oppression is a very convenient one for someone interested primarily in the status quo. Quite clever.

> but it has the potential to develop that way.

Hyperbolic bullshit. There is no potential for this online petition to develop into a lynching.

You are afraid of effective collective action.

Re: Steve Heymann Should Be Fired

#27

The comments on this post are depressing. Whatever your attitude about the White House's goofy petition site, the efficacy of 'online activism', or what-have-you, Aaron Swartz's grieving partner thinks signing this petition will help shed a little light into the circumstances that led to his death. Maybe she's right, maybe she's wrong, but either way, it only takes a second to do - so just go sign the damn thing.

Or, you know, we could just not make decisions based on other people's emotional states, as perfectly justified as they may be.

Re: Steve Heymann Should Be Fired

#28

Heymann saw Aaron as a scalp he could take. He thought he could lock Aaron up, get high-profile press coverage, and win high-fives from his fellow prosecutors in the lunchroom. Aaron was a way of reviving Heymann’s fading career. Heymann had no interest in an honest assessment of whether Aaron deserved any of the hell he was being put through. Is there any evidence for any of this seeming mind reading?

Oh come on. That's like asking "is there any evidence this particular bear shat in these particular woods?"

The path to success for prosecutors is successful high-profile prosecutions. Everybody knows that.

I don't actually know that Heymann's career had been fading, but the rest of this quote seems pretty reasonable based on what we know.

Re: Steve Heymann Should Be Fired

#29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can claim that this is all pathos and that this action is not merited on the facts, but your sardoncism about collective action seems misplaced. I'll even agree that Heymann is unlikely to be fired, but to equate either TarenSK's suggestion or petition signing with a lynching is both unfair and unkind.

Her call to action is really misguided. She's making it personal and obviously (and understandably) is out for blood. However, restrain is called for. Instead, she should be focused ONLY on getting public access to the materials under protective order. Once those docs are revealed, the process will take care of the rest if there really was misconduct.

A lot of faith in the process, there.

For some reason, whenever there's a lot of public anger, the process just so happens to disproportionately end up going the way of public anger. Not all the time, but a lot of the time. Cf. healthcare law and its route through the judicial process.

Re: Steve Heymann Should Be Fired

#30

Heymann saw Aaron as a scalp he could take. He thought he could lock Aaron up, get high-profile press coverage, and win high-fives from his fellow prosecutors in the lunchroom. Aaron was a way of reviving Heymann’s fading career. Heymann had no interest in an honest assessment of whether Aaron deserved any of the hell he was being put through. Is there any evidence for any of this seeming mind reading?

Aaron and his lawyers also interacted with him on a regular basis. Although you can never be absolutely certain of things, it's certainly possible in general to infer people's mental state through their actions.

In this particular case, if you think Aaron and his lawyers were disingenuously misrepresenting what was happening, or Taren is lying in a deeply emotional state about what he related to her, just say so. Not cloaked in clucking about mind reading.

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