Live data from Hacker News

Don’t Take Medical Advice From the New York Times Magazine

slate.com

71–80 of 127 posts

Re: Don’t Take Medical Advice From the New York Times Magazine

#72
post #70
post #18

"We are a chemophobic culture." I take great issue with this statement. We are most decidedly not a chemophobic culture. People are more than willing to take medicines that are artificially synthesized and, as the author mentions, with good reason. I, for one, am not chemophobic. I personally know an individual who developed one of the first total-syntheses (i.e. "artificial" chemical synthesis) of a very important a…

"there are miraculous, mysterious things that we do not understand about natural products and the human body" "It lies in the fact that we are applying something very strong in a way that is not balanced or integrated." Magical thinking detected. There is no evidence that taking combinations is inherently a good thing. Some things work well on their own, some work well in combination, some combinations antagonise hor…

"Magical thinking detected."

I didn't interpret his post as containing any magical thinking or handwaving, per se. Rather, I think's saying that there are interactions and compounds in drugs we use that we don't (yet) fully understand. Where you and he differ is that he advocates the use of compounds that seem to work, but whose mechanism of action we don't fully comprehend -- whereas you appear to take a more cautious view of said compounds.

Personally speaking, I sort of fall in between your two positions. There are a lot of treatments in modern medicine that are effective, but whose precise workings science does not fully comprehend. I support the use of these treatments, so long as longitudinal data shows them to be safe and effective, and their benefits to outweigh their drawbacks. However, I don't support remaining ignorant about them -- I believe we should keep striving to fully understand what's going on underneath the hood, so to speak.

"Meh. Alcohol gets you drunk. The main difference in effects you'll see between different types of alcohol is how concentrated it is, how fast you drink it and how much you take down. Drunk is drunk one way or another."

The same quantity of alcohol does, indeed, have different effects on different people. This is correlated with gender, body weight, the liver's ability to metabolize the alcohol, individual neurochemistry, etc. There is a panoply of systems within the body that react to the presence of something like alcohol, and that differs from person to person.

In a macro sense, yes, alcohol gets everyone drunk. But the rate at which it does so, and the quantity needed, and the long-term damage, can be quite variable.

"We do, what we don't need to embrace is stuff that hasn't been shown to work, contains all sorts of stuff in all sorts of unknown quantities."

Agreed. We may be living in a golden age of snake oil. The unregulated supplement industry is enormous and growing. Much of the unproven stuff is useless, some of it is dangerous, and more of it will probably be shown to be dangerous in future studies.

Re: Don’t Take Medical Advice From the New York Times Magazine

#73
post #18

"We are a chemophobic culture." I take great issue with this statement. We are most decidedly not a chemophobic culture. People are more than willing to take medicines that are artificially synthesized and, as the author mentions, with good reason. I, for one, am not chemophobic. I personally know an individual who developed one of the first total-syntheses (i.e. "artificial" chemical synthesis) of a very important a…

> even though the principal ingredient is the same (people report calming, yet stimulating effects from Yerba Maté as opposed to caffeine, etc.)!

> It turns out there is a very simple explanation for this. There are other constellations of chemicals in these concoctions which, in concert create an altogether particular and unique effect.

The simple explanation is 'Placebo Effect'. Don't ignore that, because it's powerful and poorly understood.

> Rofecoxib (better known as Vioxx) has an established LD50. For mice it is 300mg/kg, for rabbits it is 3.2g/kg, and for rats it is 980mg/kg [2]. But you know what? Vioxx exacerbated heart disease for at least thousands of people and should have been recalled years earlier than 2004[1]. An established LD50 does not mean a drug is safe.

That's exactly what the author is saying. Be sceptical about information presented to you. Ask questions. Don't blindly accept advice from anyone. A side effect of this is that you have to ask questions of people able to answer; you have to get advice from people trained and experienced enough to give it.

Re: Don’t Take Medical Advice From the New York Times Magazine

#74
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does this not apply equally to ingesting any chemicals that humans have not been exposed to during our evolution? What about tea and coffee? Or beer and wine? Or tomatoes? Or capsaicin?

It's the "with the obvious rational disclaimers" part. The above chemicals have been extensively field tested. Huge numbers of people have eaten them for a long long time, it's safe to assume any ill effects of these are known (although obviously the natural selection had little time to adapt us humans to these substances.)

How do you feel about vaccines? Anti-biotics?

Why is fear justified? Isn't the appropriate response reason and critical thinking? FDA approved drugs have been extensively field tested as well. And many "dangerous" chemicals are actually safer than, say, wine.

You're just trying to justify your fear of the unfamiliar. It's parochial and small-minded. Do you think that the people who discovered tea, beer, tomatoes, and cheese thought that way? Imagine how much smaller and less interesting our lives would be today if these sorts of fears had gripped our ancestors, and how much smaller our future will be if we allow them free reign today.

Re: Don’t Take Medical Advice From the New York Times Magazine

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering you can synthesize organic material, life can produce inorganic compounds, and plenty of organic material is toxic as shit, I'm not sure I agree with that line of thinking. I can't speak for everyone, but I am of the opinion that glucose synthesized in a lab requires no special evolution on the part of humans to process.

What you are saying is disingenuous. Clearly the pills made for pharmaceutical are incredibly dangerous, even when taken as per the instructions. That is why they are prescribed. Avoiding taking prescription drugs unless you really have to (ie are going to die), as I do, is not a bad way to live. Just because natural things will kill you, does not mean we should not avoid man made things. So I do not take pills for h…

Paracetamol (acetaminophen) is a very safe drug if you do not take too much.

Being in pain when there is a simple, cheap, safe, effective medication is a bad way to live.

Re: Don’t Take Medical Advice From the New York Times Magazine

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. It’s a hyperforeignism, I think. Kind of a shame that diaeresis and respelling aren’t used in English much anymore, else it’d properly be spelled matë or Anglicised as mattay .

It's hard to for many at least in the United States to use é or other words with explicit accent symbols due to the way our keyboards are set up. I have mine modded to use shortcut keys to make them, but that's more than what most would ever want to deal with.

As a European using the extended latin alphabet, setting your keyboard up to easily type é, is easy: use a modifier key. Then, for example, MOD + ' followed by e becomes é. Similarly you can make à, ô, ĩ, œ, ů, and so on. I even believe this is the default setting (as I cannot remember setting it manually).

But I agree that if you don't use these characters, setting it up to type one or two odd characters isn't worth the hassle.

Re: Don’t Take Medical Advice From the New York Times Magazine

#77
Here's the thing, if you're taking medical advice from someone who isn't a practising doctor, you're probably an idiot. All those natural herbs and old wives tale remedies? Scientists actually have checked those and turned them into actual medicines where they worked. Everything else is a load of crap.

Re: Don’t Take Medical Advice From the New York Times Magazine

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans haven't evolved fast enough to deal with the diet of ordinary civilization either (which is only 300-500 generations old). However, humans are omnivores so we're pretty flexible in what we can eat and stay healthy. Also, there are plenty of unhealthy and downright hazardous natural products. For example, ergot of rye is a hallucinogen which is poisonous in moderate doses and has many toxic side effects at lowe…

Don’t forget bezoars from unripe persimmons, or hydrazine poisoning from improperly cooked morels, or hydrogen cyanide poisoning from fruit pits. There are endless ways to kill yourself by eating carelessly. Then again, a lot of the foods we so enjoy are enjoyable precisely because they contain things designed to kill or discourage pests. Capsaicin, for example, or caffeine. And much of human history is owed to alcoh…

Or simply inhaling water, of course.

Chemophobia is about nothing more than familiarity. What we are familiar with we accept and are comfortable with, what we are unfamiliar with we are more likely to be afraid of. News organizations play this up all the time, because playing on fear of the unusual is an easy way to gain ratings (especially in a modern world where anything unusual that happens anywhere on Earth can be fodder for a local news broadcast).

For example, imagine you hear a story of someone having died in an arson fire, the news will probably have little impact on you, you may not even feel anything other than a small degree of sadness. Now imagine that you hear another news story, except this one is about how someone tampered with someone else's toothpaste and snuck in eggs of a parasite which then hatched and grew in the victim's intestines for a day and eventually led to the death of the victim. You'd almost certainly pay attention to that story, and you'd probably have strong feelings about it too. And you'd also likely feel a little wary whenever you brushed your teeth or bought toothpaste. You'd almost certainly never feel wary or in fear of arson while living in your apartment though, and you probably wouldn't think about how horrible dying from fire could be. However, in the US the risk of dying from arson is far, far higher than dying from intestinal worms. However, in some parts of the world the latter would be far more common and familiar.

Just because something is common and familiar doesn't mean it's safe, and the inverse is true as well.

Re: Don’t Take Medical Advice From the New York Times Magazine

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. It’s a hyperforeignism, I think. Kind of a shame that diaeresis and respelling aren’t used in English much anymore, else it’d properly be spelled matë or Anglicised as mattay .

It's hard to for many at least in the United States to use é or other words with explicit accent symbols due to the way our keyboards are set up. I have mine modded to use shortcut keys to make them, but that's more than what most would ever want to deal with.

In OS X you type alt e (to get the acute accent ´) and then e. é.

Re: Don’t Take Medical Advice From the New York Times Magazine

#80
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"there are miraculous, mysterious things that we do not understand about natural products and the human body" "It lies in the fact that we are applying something very strong in a way that is not balanced or integrated." Magical thinking detected. There is no evidence that taking combinations is inherently a good thing. Some things work well on their own, some work well in combination, some combinations antagonise hor…

"Magical thinking detected." I didn't interpret his post as containing any magical thinking or handwaving, per se. Rather, I think's saying that there are interactions and compounds in drugs we use that we don't (yet) fully understand. Where you and he differ is that he advocates the use of compounds that seem to work, but whose mechanism of action we don't fully comprehend -- whereas you appear to take a more cautio…

"Where you and he differ is that he advocates the use of compounds that seem to work, but whose mechanism of action we don't fully comprehend -- whereas you appear to take a more cautious view of said compounds."

I certainly advocate the use of things for which there is evidence that they work, even if we have no idea how. I'm just very cautious about hailing these things without investigation, or elevating the natural above the artificial (whatever that means) because of some vague belief in plant synergy.

I like the aspirin example here - aspirin can be produced from salicin in willow bark. Willow bark itself can be used in much the same way, but contains tannins that can damage liver and kidneys over time.

So I think we absolutely should use and investigate 'natural' remedies that seem to work, but we should never assume that they're better or that we can't do better.

Post reply on HN